KDE or GNOME or?
March 26th, 2008 by LJ Staff
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Kde, for sure
On April 29th, 2009 DaBonzo (not verified) says:
My first Slackware installation was about 1994-1995. I can't remember what DE it had but I know it was ugly and not usable. So I switched to console for the next years. Some day I got a Suse-CD and tried it out. It came with KDE as the standard DE. Since this day I use KDE. I perfectly suits my needs. I don't break my head about licenses (QT is GPL) In my opinion GTK/GNOME is somehow ugly, sterile. Like hospital. I've tried GNOME several times but if you started with KDE there so many things you miss in GNOME. Probably it is on the other way around the same. Recently I've tried KDE4. I've needed a few attempts but with 4.2 it's usable and I switched all my desktops to KDE 4. I'm happy with it. I'm afraid that with this Ubuntu-Hype there will be coming heavy seas for KDE. And I hope that this developement will not impact the KDE-Developement
Enlightenment... the DR16 WM please, not the bloated '17 DE
On March 25th, 2009 Jean-Philippe "tropical Ice Cube" Monteiro (not verified) says:
[ I use DR16 since October 2005 precisely :) ]
I agree with the 'WM' not 'DE' comments above: E DR16 is a true fast WM that would run quick & nice on most anything with 64mb of ram... Then I am tired of Gnome's limitations and slowliness, and I quite can't, at all, get the grip on KDE4 (And I've had terminal, data-loss issues with KDE4.2.1 apps while KDE3.5.10 ones still serves me well), XFCE is less-and-less cholesterol free over the years... Really and truly, Distros should work more towards their own customised, specialised interfaces based on nice WM's + their own take at it (Like Puppy with JWM) rather than giving the whole Linux World a sense of tasteless experience where "kde-or-gnome" becomes the single question asked. I want difference! I demand it!
LXDE
On March 17th, 2009 ActionParsnip (not verified) says:
I used to use KDE religiously and I still use KDE apps but I just got sick of KWin being unsteady and bloated. I switched to fluxbox and loved it heartily but longed for a menu in the bottom left so switched to LXDE. Its snappy and light and runs well. I do miss the easy shortcut keys in fluxbox but I'm using the app bar and I'm fine with that. To all the nay sayers and the hailer of "best", I say what I always say. There is no single "best" ANYTHING in life! one mans best is the next man's worst and I think it is hugely immature to use such language. Best only applies when analyzing something with value to personal requirements.
Just avoid stupd compiz as it genuinely breaks things is my advice but someone said it well above, try a few, try them all, then retry some more. One will suit you. For some its gnome, for some, kde, whatever, just use what you use and let others get on with what they use. Other peoples DE choice does not affect your system running a different DE.
Welcome to Linux (and BSD), welcome to choice
Xfce works on my 4-headed machine where GNOME and KDE do not
On February 22nd, 2009 Rod Montgomery (not verified) says:
I wanted to have two logical desktops, each covering two physical displays, on a machine running Ubuntu Intrepid 8.10 AMD64.
Neither GNOME nor KDE produced the effect I wanted, but Xfce produced it immediately I tried it.
Details at http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=6779844
I've been using mostly KDE with Debian, but this will make me switch to Xfce.
KDE or GNOME
On October 23rd, 2008 Carion (not verified) says:
I tried Gnome in the past but always felt limited and switched back to KDE.
We Linux fans can fight about GNOME or KDE, but this is irrelevant.
If Linux will ever conquer the desktop, we will have to give the end-user the desired look and feel.
Most non-geek users have used Windows XP and don't want to bother with a different user interface (Vista or whatever) and they are right.
The winner could probably be a XP-ish desktop with Linux under the hood.
KDE 3 is the best candidate to achieve this.
The problem is that some killer-apps (e.g. Firefox, Openoffice) are not KDE friendly.
The fragmentation in the Linux world will continue to stifle it's success on the desktop.
The solution could be a new distribution which focuses on the needs of ordinary users and not on the needs of the nerds.
UserLinux for Users, the nerds (including myself) can have fun with the ??? other distributions...
Doesnt Ubuntu do that
On March 17th, 2009 ActionParsnip (not verified) says:
Doesn't ubuntu give a solution for ordinary users? Firefox runs fine on KDE in KUbuntu, just use the tar.gz from mozill.com instead of apt-get which is dependant on stupid gnome look or something so bloats to 100Mb. Maybe try a different browser like swiftfox, abrowser or even opera (not open sourced but decent, and better imho)
Try looking further than the usual apps that folks install, sure they are different but without experimentation you may miss an app that suits your needs better. You tried Linux instead of Windows, why not maintain the trend?
Mostly KDE 3.5
On October 21st, 2008 Alan (not verified) says:
I have been using Linux for about 6 years, and originally started with KDE from a philosophical point of view - C++ (as an object oriented language) should have provided a faster developing and more consistent environment.
I have tried several times to switch to Gnome - but always ended up switching back - familiarity is a strong reason, when you get frustrated because you can't do something and you don't know whether its you or the environment. This was mostly around burning CD/DVDs (k3b I know) and using konqueror's KIO handling to ftp or sftp into other servers and carry on as though it was local.
I have argued with myself that its because I haven't found an e-mail program as friendly to handle high volumes of mail as kmail (If you have several hundred e-mails a day from mailing lists that you want to scan through, pressing space bar to get to the next unread mail in the current folder, and then the next folder with an unread message is essential - I am biased, because I added that piece of functionality to kmail several years ago). This is nonsense, because I regularly use Gimp, or OpenOffice, or Firefox or lots of other GTK apps and I could just as easily run another desktop with Kmail as the mail program.
I've tried KDE 4 twice, but the stability and functionality around useful things (seeing the dimensions of pictures in the file manager) has been missing and I have ended up going back to the familiar. But, this is begining to drive me away from KDE - Konqueror (3.5) regularly crashes on web sites - I have to assume all development is going on in KDE4. I think its just a question now of when to jump.
So why is gnome winning the votes
On October 21st, 2008 alleyoopster (not verified) says:
I think Ubuntu has a lot to do with this. People are basically lazy and the distribution that has most installs at the moment is Ubuntu, which ships with Gnome. Don't get me wrong, I like Gnome, in fact I still recommend it and encourage people to use it over others. Why, because of its design and goals to be human interactive. It is less obtrusive and arguably easier to use than others. But with all this I don't actually use it. Why, because I use so many KDE apps, I use konquorer a lot more now with fish etc for web site maintenance and for speed that I just found XFCE to be a better choice. I do run KDE 3.5 on my desktop still and have kde 4.1 on laptop, but kde4.1 does not compete with functionality at the moment.
The more I use XFCE the more I like it. It still needs a bit of setting up to get it how you like it, but it can be powerful, it is very quick, feature packed and still can be made to look good.
Gnome
On August 19th, 2008 jaebird says:
I like Gnome and really like the underlying license of gtk+ much better than qt. I want the freedom to be able to create an app that may not be OSS without paying licensing fees.
Could it be you slept over
On April 29th, 2009 Bonzos (not verified) says:
Could it be you slept over the last years? (many years)
KDE for now
On July 30th, 2008 chasashmore says:
I've used Linux for twelve years, almost exclusively for the last seven years, having gone from RedHat to Caldera to SuSE to Ubuntu to Kubuntu to Mint (with Mandrake and Xandros and other distros mixed in), and I've used several desktop managers and window managers. For a long time I was a fan of Gnome because of the debate over Qt's "orthodoxy." But I have to admit, I much prefer KDE because of the apps, because of a greater sense of integration (even the kapp1, kapp2, kapp3 naming thing doesn't bother me as it does some), and contrary to the experience of some here, I find it less buggy, and I find a greater sense of aesthetic style to it. Yes, sometimes I'd like a clean break from anything resembling windoze (which is why I loved AfterStep at one time), but for now it's KDE.
__________________________Bug
Gnome followed by Window
On May 11th, 2008 Anonymous (not verified) says:
Gnome followed by Window Maker.
Gnome simply works, all the time, you're never left wondering where this option is or where this went or why this menu entry was not created after running pacman (Arch Linux).
Not only that Gnome is rock-solid and keeps the file manager to what it should do - manage files, no more no less. - The whole problem with KDE is everything is bound up with that stupid Konqueror - And Konqueror may be the most "Signal 11" catching app in all Gnu/Linux land - it's always crashing, we all know it.
I also picked Window Maker - it's nice, speedy and highly customizable however it does get on my nerves after a while.. there is something "ugly" about it...
Afterstep is colorful yet astrocious in every other way - the color guys on Afterstep should help Window Maker.
(Oh and I must admit.. E-17 is very VERY sexy.)
kde too messy
On May 9th, 2008 tennisbob (not verified) says:
For me KDE is just to complicated and messy. There are too many options and programs to choose from. Every menu item like Internet or Graphics contains a list of around 30 different programs on just a default install. kprogram this and kprogram that and kprogram the other. Help the k's are killing me :-}.
I guess I'm just a simple person and only need so many options and programs. Gnome fits the bill for me. When I go to Internet or Graphics on a fresh install, I've only got a handful of programs and only need a handful of programs. I can then simply add the programs I want and not be overwhelmed with dozens and dozens of kprograms.
Just my 0.02$
Fluxbox All the Way
On April 26th, 2008 manpage (not verified) says:
I love Fluxbox. It's not a desktop manager, just a window manager. Someone mentioned tabbed windows. That's awesome, especially for apps like Evince that don't have tabs. Also it has customizable mouse clicks on desktop and keyboard shortcuts that are easy to configure.
Fluxbox has no useless junk like icons (although you can get an icon manager if you want), it loads really fast, and has some great themes.
The only thing it doesn't have is window shading on mouse scrolling. Once it gets this it will be perfect.
Gnome for the time being
On April 21st, 2008 Ron T. (not verified) says:
Gnome for the time being
I've recently moved to Gnome after I've been using K.D.E for 2 years (ever since I've used Linux). Gnome seems to be faster than K.D.E on my ~5 years PC (using ubuntu).
I liked K.D.E and especially the built-in photos viewers and video players into konqueror. However, it was slow and a little bit buggy and less compatible with compiz than Gnome.
I'm waiting to kde4 to be more mature in order to try it and then we'll see...
Discount those who have not made their choice after trying a few
On April 16th, 2008 Anonymous (not verified) says:
Although the question is about "preferred" desktop manager, it's not clear how many respondents vote after trying out a few of them before deciding a preferred one. Many distros pack a default desktop manager which may be contributing to their widespread use. The "used to" factor may lead to "preferred one" feeling.
KDE
On April 15th, 2008 Anonymous (not verified) says:
KDE has been my display manager of choice for about 6 years. let me list a few favorites and the gnome addicts can respond. Konqueror does multiple split screens (in the same window), makes FTP access to websites easy, allows you to change the browser identification and allows you to add service menus to your right-click context menus (nautilus does not seem to implement this as well). Amarok is an excellent music player. K3B burns CDs and DVDs easier and better than any other burning software I know.
several, actually
On April 14th, 2008 xtifr says:
I mostly use Fvwm at home and Gnome at work, but I occasionally switch to other systems as the mood strikes. I'm still not very fond of KDE, but it has it's attractions. Mostly I find it too cluttered and intrusive, but some parts are very well done. Fluxbox is excellent. Enlightenment has, despite a checkered past, turned into something pretty solid and reliable. I haven't really played with Xfce much, mostly because it reminds me of CDE, which is a nightmare I prefer to forget, but I can understand the attraction. Windowmaker seems to be a bit stagnant these days, but it's still a good system.
Still, the majority of what I do is either under Fvwm or Gnome. Since the poll forced me to pick one, I went with Fvwm, which I've been using longer, but I do use Gnome just about as often these days.
I prefer Gnome desktop environment..
On April 9th, 2008 Vasu (not verified) says:
Hi friends,
when my life with Linux started from that time I am using the Gnome desktop environment.It has very intresting and eye candy look and contains more features that we can use easily even for new user for linux environment.I some times used the KDE it is also very fine at look and working but some times it becomes hangs
and shows the bug error.But I never faced the problems when I used Gnome.Both are best but some improvements needed in KDE.I hope that in KDE 4 the problems ware rectified and more improved.
Thanks
I just like Gnome Desktop
On April 13th, 2008 sleggy_allen (not verified) says:
hi there!...i just started using ubuntu for about a month and a half...and i had fun configuring my pc...and the first time i installed it i was also interested with some other distributions like xubuntu and kubuntu...i tried installing xubuntu and it lasted for 5 days in my machine...i like the design of xfce but i had problems when it comes to customizing it...and i tried also kubuntu but it lasted for less than an hour in my machine...well i think the reason why i don't like kde it's becuase of the appearance...i don't really like the idea of navigating like WINDOWS style...well for me i like gnome over kde because i can customize it with no problem...
I started with KDE (and SuSE
On April 9th, 2008 nqs (not verified) says:
I started with KDE (and SuSE 7.3), found it was too similar to windows, then went xfce 3.x, which i like because it reminded me of CDE, but i developed an aversion to icons, and switched on a whim to fluxbox ( was on gentoo by this time), which I use with the console gaining favor as far as being most productive
Gnome...For the time being
On April 8th, 2008 Seth Paxton (not verified) says:
I have used GNOME, KDE, Xfce, Enlightenment, Fluxbox, and Openbox. I prefer Gnome, but Xfce comes in at a close second. I plan on switching to KDE 4.1 once its available. I really enjoy KDE 4, but its not stable in its current state. I believe that once KDE 4 becomes more mature and stable, this pole might change drastically.
Gnome
On April 8th, 2008 Seth Paxton (not verified) says:
I have used GNOME, KDE, Xfce, Enlightenment, Fluxbox, and Openbox. I prefer Gnome, but Xfce comes in at a close second. I plan on switching to KDE 4.1 once its available. I really enjoy KDE 4, but its not stable in its current state. I believe that once KDE 4 becomes more mature and stable, this pole might change drastically.
KDE, but...
On April 8th, 2008 Anonymous (not verified) says:
The way "unclutter" keeps destroying carefully
laid-out multi-window configurations (and the
fact that it is hard-coded in the KDE source
code and is *not*configurable*) gets me so upset
from time to time that I run IceWM for a while...
Gnome for us
On April 8th, 2008 Anonymous (not verified) says:
We used to use KDE for our office implementation but changed to Gnome when we switched to using Ubuntu - why, its simpler than KDE and does everything we need. KDE was good for tinkering around but at work when you just need to get stuff done Gnome seems the smoother option.
Ubuntu and GNOME
On April 7th, 2008 WillyWonka says:
I've been running Ubuntu for a while now and I have another machine running KUbuntu on it and it just seems like my Ubuntu system is so much more customizable and stable. KDE may have a lot of programs and a certain look to it, but overall GNOME is, well nicer looking and much easier (for me) to use.
GNOME has made some really
On April 7th, 2008 sadsfae (not verified) says:
GNOME has made some really great improvements from 2.0.x -> 2.22+
I was a long-time KDE user during the 2.x era. I also used fluxbox, XFCE and Windowmaker. I abandoned GNOME in the 1.9.x -2.0.x series because it felt clunky and unusable for the amount of resources it used, it seems a lot better now; improvements in Nautilus and the overall UI have brought me back. Thanks GNOME team!
KDE, leaning towards XFCE
On April 6th, 2008 DrCR (not verified) says:
I'm still using KDE. In fact, I'm still using VectorLinux 5.1.1 (SW10.1). I guess it's simply because it does everything I need it to do, and I haven't really had time to play around with something newer. But I am starting to like XFCE more and more.
KDE vs. GNOME
On April 6th, 2008 Anonymous (not verified) says:
Well, I still go for KDE, at least functionality wise, everything is there. GNOME has a lot of eyecandy, but if you consider the applications made for Linux, KDE still outnumbers GNOME. What I would love though is a common graphical platform for linux, so that every application can run irregardless if you run GNOME or KDE, without pulling in the associated libraries needed to run one application in a different environment. This would greatly enhance linux as a choice of OS not just for techies and hobbyist, but for the general microsoft windows users as well.
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Oh ... the line "KDE is far
On April 5th, 2008 myke (not verified) says:
Oh ... the line "KDE is far superior to Brasero." should've said k3b is far superior to Brasero. My typo bad.
Oh ... the line "KDE is far
On April 5th, 2008 myke (not verified) says:
Oh ... the line "KDE is far superior to Brasero." should've said k3b is far superior to Brasero. My typo bad.
Gnome for Desktop, KDE for apps
On April 5th, 2008 myke (not verified) says:
Strictly speaking for the desktop environment, I prefer Gnome and did switch from KDE 3.5x this past year. KDE was more elegant in a way but I found it much much buggier, slower, more prone to crashes, and less hardware configurable. Particularly with respect to the volume manager. I'd have problems constantly under KDE with properly mounting or unmounting or both regarding most removable media (hard drives, etc.). Also half the time wouldn't recognize a simple audio CD.
I like the simplicity and most of all the reliability of Gnome. Since switching over to it, my drive all work as they're supposed to and I don't need to mount my scanner as root as I did in KDE.
So for desktop environment in general ... Gnome.
Apps/packages ... a totally different story. No matter how many apps they try to get to match the QT based ones, GTK apps are often inferior. Amarok crushes Banshee. KDE is far superior to Brasero. Etc. Etc. I even prefer kFTP grabber over the gtk version. kFlickr for flickr uploading. DigiKam for photo management. k9copy for dvd ripping. I mean, with GTK based apps, you can't even customize the toolbar buttons. That is simply archaic. The only GTK apps I tend to use are really simplistic ones such as the calculator, audio tag tool, and sound converter that don't need much customization. Oh .. and Kaffeine is much more elegant and refined than Totem by far.
Linux users and pundit need to start distinguishing between the desktop environment and also notice a clear break between the QT vs. GTK packages. THAT, to me, is where the real difference lies.
Gnome should stay focused on what it does best. Provide a stable, nice looking, easy to configure, peripheral supporting desktop environment. But ... they oughta also realize that QT based packages/applications themselves are most often more elegant and simply nicer to use. And nicer looking. Compare a toolbar on k3b v Brasero or Kaffeine vs Brasero. No comparison. The GTK ones look absolutely archaic ... horrible even ... compared to there QT cousins.
THAT's what I like Linux and the greater move toward interoperability. I can like one desktop environment while preferring another system based packages.
I used to be a KDE user when
On April 5th, 2008 Anonymous (not verified) says:
I used to be a KDE user when I had openSUSE v.9 / v.10.. on my computer. But in my univercity where I work, most of linux pcs had distros with GNOME on them. And that was my first time I'd tried GNOME. After that, when I went home, I'd uninstalled KDE snd I'd installed GNOME.
I think that is much more easy, more beautiful and better for compiling.
KDE
On April 4th, 2008 Anonymous (not verified) says:
I just seem to fight with GNOME much more. I have been an Ubuntu user for a year and a half. It took me a great deal of time to get the desk top configured the way I wanted. I recently switched to openSUSE with KDE and I am very impressed with it. In one evening I had the desktop looking the way I wanted and install multimedia support. This was mostly because there was less to do, SUSE came out of the box ready to use. I'm sticking with openSUSE and KDE.
KDE, but for how much longer?
On April 4th, 2008 Theosch (not verified) says:
I like KDE mainly because of Konqueror and its kio slaves. Now that KDE has ditched Konqueror as its standard file manager and started the so-far gruesome KDE 4, I may switch if things get too bad, especially as Konqueror will run under any other WM. I don't like Gnome because I can't seem to get rid of the double clicking.
Getting Rid of Double-Clicking in Gnome
On April 5th, 2008 mjrd (not verified) says:
On Fedora 8 using the menu: System / Preferences / File Management / Behavior - select the radio button 'Single click to open item'
KDE - Gnome too much like windozes
On April 4th, 2008 Anonymous (not verified) says:
I use both Gnome at work and KDE at home. It really depends who's
using it. If I have a basic user Gnome is good because most couldn't
figure out where things are configured mainly because the configuration
is buried using a syntax that most can't understand. I personally
prefer KDE because it doesn't hide the configuration. I usually use
the command line and vi and find most GUIs only allow simple configuration changes whereby the command line all options are available.
Where Gnome 'Buries' Configuration
On April 5th, 2008 mjrd (not verified) says:
On Fedora 8, most of the items you can configure are under the "System" menu item - which is divided in 2 sets of items under "Preferences" and "Administration". On my machine, I get 37 items to administer. In addition, under the "Applications" menu, there is "System Tools" which contains 12 administration tools. That is a lot of stuff right in the top menu - enabled by a simple GUI, not hidden by some obscure syntax ...
If that's not enough, you can install the "Gnome Control Center" which will put most of the tools in the same place.
KDE
On April 3rd, 2008 mingus (not verified) says:
I've used Gnome, both when I used Ubuntu and even after I went back to SuSE (which still is better than Ubuntu, esp with sysadmin). But every time I find myself wanting to do things that Gnome doesn't support, except perhaps by getting deep inside its guts. Gnome is great for the Ubuntu targeted first-time user, because of its simplicity. But if you want granular control of the desktop, the ability to bolt-on your own via dcop, the extraordinary power of Konqueror, etc., you have to go with KDE. I think it's noteworthy that KDE is more popular in Europe, where users have more history with Linux and are more hands-on proficient - broad generality, but true - than their U.S. counterparts.
I Prefer Gnome above KDE
On April 3rd, 2008 The Master of Disaster (not verified) says:
I Use Gnome since I use Ubuntu and I have never regret it for one second. If you want something completely different when you move away from Windows you should consider Gnome. The longer you use it the more you're going to appreciate it. I have used KDE before during the time I loved the ARCH Linux distribution but for me (and yes, taste is personal) Gnome is #1.
Gnome with KDE apps
On April 3rd, 2008 Anonymous (not verified) says:
I was devoted to KDE and its apps until I switched to Mint and really gave Gnome a try. I could switch back and not worry -the quality of the distro seems more important. There are some KDE apps I really like, kate and amarok being most noticable. I have installed these and had no adverse affects and that seems the best of both for me. I want to try a 'lighter' environment on an old laptop though. (Don't you just love the choices...)
Fluxbox
On April 3rd, 2008 Anonymous (not verified) says:
It does what needs to be done... what more is there to say....
Currently GNOME
On April 3rd, 2008 JustnTime (not verified) says:
Long ago I started with Slackware, no GUI. Now I run Slackware for personal use with CDE, SUSE 10.x with GNOME and CentOS 5 and GNOME.
I've tried enlightenment, Fluxbox, KDE, WindowMaker, AfterStep, and the list goes on. The thing is, this is exactly why I like Linux, no one compels you to use one method or WM over another. I'm not forced to work in a particular way like other proprietary OS vendors.
It's all about the WM not getting in your way and using a WM that suits your personal tastes, needs and workflow. This is why Linux simply rocks.
Fluxbox
On April 3rd, 2008 Anonymous (not verified) says:
The fastes Windowmanager i have ever seen yet.
KDE 4.0 looks disgusting. So
On April 2nd, 2008 Anonymous (not verified) says:
KDE 4.0 looks disgusting. So I choose Gnome.
KDE
On April 2nd, 2008 Rick (not verified) says:
I appreciate KDE for its richly functional applications and interface. I may not take advantage of many of the features of a KDE application when I first start using it, but they're there when I need them. An example is KOrganizer. I thought that the todo list implementation was overkill, but I was very glad that overkill was available when I was tracking all of the work needed to be done to sell my house and arrange a move across the country.
I used GNOME for years, but grew tired of seeing features that I'd come to depend on disappear as new releases came out. Yes, yes - I know there's the HIG. I firmly believe in hiding complexity when it's not needed, but eliminating features wholesale is going too far. There's also the disturbing frequency of crashes I see with GTK applications. That first led me to start using their KDE equivalents.
Gnome is my faverate
On April 2nd, 2008 Neil (not verified) says:
It's clean and quick. And I write code in C.
K, G, or X
On April 1st, 2008 Arnold L. Johnson (not verified) says:
It's much like the MS thing when people haggle over KDE or Gnome. These two guys dominate the popular Linux desktop by default. Then XFCE is billed as the one to use to rescue PCs from the junk pile. XFCE is actually a pretty sweet desktop that does not get in your way yet has good looks. As a point and click kind of guy I prefer Xfce because it runs even faster on new hardware.
KDE
On April 1st, 2008 Kefka D'Arden (not verified) says:
I have been using KDE because I liked the way preferences was controlled so far. I'm am tempted to try Gnome 2.22 and see how things have changed as I haven't used Gnome for quite some time. I also used Enlightenment for a brief period, but found that it wouldn't add new applications to the menu, and was harder to configure.
I just like gnome
On April 1st, 2008 Bert Van de Poel (not verified) says:
started off in KDE on linux (mandriva) and didn't like it, then I found ubuntu and gnome, days of light followed.
I just love the look and feel of gnome, kde looks so odd with all the stuff squeezed on their bar and I also more like the gtk stuff and all the options and way of organizing, it just works better with my brain :P
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