My Visit to SCO
This essay describes my visit to SCO on
June 17, 2003, to discuss SCO's claim that Linux infringes on its
intellectual property rights. I visited the SCO office in Lindon,
Utah, for about one hour. I spoke with Chris Sontag, Senior Vice
President, Operating Systems Division, and with Blake Stowell,
Director of Public Relations. In order to speak with them, I signed
a non-disclosure agreement.The short version of this essay is SCO's claims are unproven,
as I expected would be the case before I went. The amount of
information SCO was willing to show me was extremely limited, and
it did not by itself prove that SCO's claims were true nor that its
claims were false.BackgroundI won't give the full background here, as it is well covered
elsewhere, such as on
Karsten
Self's page. The short version, as of June 17, 2003, is SCO
has sued IBM, alleging that IBM took work that was the intellectual
property of SCO and incorporated it into Linux (when I say "Linux"
in this essay, I mean specifically the Linux kernel, not a complete
distribution). SCO is the current owner of Unix, which originally
was developed by AT&T. SCO, which used to be named Caldera,
purchased the rights to Unix from a different company named SCO,
which has since changed its name to Tarantella. Along with Unix,
SCO purchased a number of contractual agreements, including one
with IBM. SCO is alleging that IBM has violated that
contract.SCO also sent a letter to some 1,500 commercial users of
Linux distributions, warning them that Linux may be an unauthorized
derivative of code owned by SCO. That is, SCO alleges that Linux
actually to some extent is owned by SCO and may not be distributed
under the GPL. The letter further claims that users of Linux may
have legal liability because of this.SCO said it would provide evidence that Linux is a derivative
of Unix to independent analysts. With the help of Don Marti, Editor
in Chief of Linux Journal, I contacted SCO and
offered to be one of those analysts. SCO agreed, subject to my
signing the NDA and traveling to its headquarters in Lindon,
Utah.SCO's legal case is complicated by the fact that when SCO was
named Caldera it was itself a Linux distributor, and it may have
distributed, under the GPL, the code which it now claims to own. It
also complicated by allegations that SCO has incorporated Linux
code under the GPL into UnixWare. These issues may indeed cause
SCO's legal case to founder, but not in the way I would prefer it
to founder.Why Did I Go?I took the trouble to visit SCO because I care about what
happens to free software in general and Linux in particular. The
SCO claims have put a cloud over Linux. I have heard speculation
from business acquaintances that the free versions of Linux will be
shunned by corporate IT users, who will be unwilling to take the
legal risk of using it. I don't think that would be good for Linux
or for free software.I remember the AT&T case against BSDI and the University
of California, which arguably stalled BSD development for a few
years. Indeed, it arguably was the root cause of Linux's
popularity, because Linux development was not stalled. SCO's case
against IBM is in some ways a reprisal of the AT&T case, and I
fear that it has a similar potential to stall Linux
development.SCO was willing to speak only with people who signed a
Draconian non-disclosure agreement (NDA), one which essentially
permitted SCO to declare any information it provided to be
confidential, regardless of whether the signer already knew it, and
which offered no circumstances under which that information could
be revealed. Most Linux developers are unable to sign such an NDA,
as it easily could prevent them from ever again working on the
kernel. Similarly, employees of any company that works with Linux
cannot sign such an NDA.I have never contributed to the Linux kernel myself. However,
I have worked with free software for over 10 years, including
acting as a maintainer for projects owned by the Free Software
Foundation. I have plenty of personal knowledge of how free
software development works. I currently am not employed by anybody,
but simply working as a contractor on work not related to
Linux.Thus, I felt going in that I was in a good position to sign
the NDA and to analyze the information that SCO presented to me.
While SCO easily could have made it impossible for me to contribute
to the Linux kernel, it had no reason to do so. In any case, I had
no particular plans to do any kernel work.Before going to meet SCO, I asked three times if it would be
willing to change the NDA. I suggested that SCO should change the
NDA to permit the disclosure of information when legally required
by a court and to permit the disclosure of information when SCO
specifically agrees to it. I also suggested the NDA should be
changed so that information I already knew before meeting could not
be treated confidential. The only response I received was SCO
forwarded my suggestions to its counsel.As it turned out, SCO actually showed me very little
confidential information.PreliminariesAs mentioned above, I met with Chris Sontag and Blake
Stowell. Chris Sontag did almost all the talking. In general, below
I say "SCO says" and so forth, but Chris Sontag was the one who
actually was talking.Chris Sontag showed me a series of PowerPoint (I assume)
slides and talked about them. I took notes on my laptop. He
listened to my questions and tried to answer them. He did not show
me anything beyond his planned presentation, despite my requests
for some additional information. This presentation was not the same
as the one described by
The
Inquirer. This one was divided into three main
topics: SCO owns Unix, SCO vs. IBM and Linux is tainted.SCO Owns UnixSCO argues it purchased full rights to Unix from the old SCO,
which purchased the rights from Novell. The Unix patents still are
owned by AT&T, but SCO has purchased the right to use them.
There was a dispute with Novell over copyright ownership, but SCO
claims this has been resolved and SCO does indeed own the
copyrights.In general, SCO claims to have purchased all rights to all
versions of Unix System V and all prior versions of Unix, which
were developed by AT&T.My concerns are with free software, not the actual ownership
of Unix. I believed at the start of the lawsuit that SCO owned the
rights to Unix, and I suppose I still am willing to believe that. I
think that any legal issues here clearly are a matter of the
purchase contract between Novell and the original SCO, and it
should be more or less straightforward for the new SCO and Novell
to settle them.The main issue of interest to me is whether rights to early
versions of Unix have been weakened by the wide spread distribution
of source code, including the publication of the Lions book and the
fact that, until recently, the new SCO was distributing Unix source
code for free on its FTP site.SCO vs. IBMSCO is suing IBM for breach of contract, unfair competition,
tortious interference and misappropriation of trade secrets. SCO is
now the owner of the contract that IBM originally signed with
AT&T (I assume, but maybe some later owner) to develop AIX.
That contract requires derivative works remain part of AIX. It also
requires IBM to maintain confidentiality of sources and derivative
code. Derivative works are allowed "provided resulting materials
are treated as part of the original software products."SCO has a list of about 20 IBM engineers who are, it claims,
using AIX methods in Linux. SCO claims that some of these engineers
literally are looking at AIX source code as they discuss Linux
issues and making recommendations based on the AIX code.SCO claims this is inappropriate because everything built on
top of AIX or using methods developed in AIX is really a derived
work of Unix. As we talked, I realized this is a key part of SCO's
argument. SCO claims that anything built on top of Unix is itself a
derived work of Unix. I will discuss this further below.SCO said that besides IBM, Sequent has contributed code to
Linux which is derived from Unix. Sequent is now a subsidiary of
IBM.SCO also claims that some of the derivative works IBM
contributed to Linux include NUMA, RCU, JFS, SMP, performance
measurement and improvements, serviceability, scheduler
improvements, LinuxPPC 32 and 64 bit support, logical partition
support. Sontag moved on to the next slide before I typed down the
rest of the list.I asked specifically about JFS, because I know that was
originally developed for OS/2. SCO claims that JFS was originally
developed for AIX, then ported to OS/2, then ported back to AIX;
the port back to AIX was the basis for the Linux port. Chris Sontag
said this was straight from the
JFS
web page. I just checked, and the JFS web page does not
entirely agree. There IBM says that while JFS was first developed
for AIX, the development for OS/2 was a new effort; the Linux port
was based on the OS/2 work, not the port back to AIX. Using SCO's
expansive definition of derivative work, arguably the development
on OS/2 was based on the original AIX development, as some of the
same people may have worked on it and used their experience with
the AIX code.Again, despite all this discussion, the whole issue of SCO
vs. IBM was not the reason I was there. If IBM did indeed breach
its contract, I suppose it should pay some appropriate penalty.
I've been around the computer world too long to think that IBM is
on the right side of every issue. However, SCO's presentation did
not show me any clear evidence that IBM did indeed breach its
contract. Obviously, IBM has contributed code to Linux, but it is
not at all clear to me that such code is a derivative of
Unix.Linux is TaintedHere, we come to the meat of the issue: has code clearly
derived from Unix been incorporated into Linux? Unfortunately, SCO
was willing to show me only one example. I was shown a source file
Sontag said was from SVR4, which was compared to a source file from
Linux. The identical portions of the code were highlighted. There
were indeed substantial similarities in the code: very similar
comment text, the same variable names, the same algorithm. There
also were some differences, but it seemed quite plausible that both
pieces of code came from the same source.SCO refused to show me the revision history of the Unix file.
I pointed out this made it impossible to judge the order of
derivation; SCO agreed, and said it was a matter of discovery for
the court case. SCO said it is confident the code had not appeared
in BSD and was developed internally at AT&T and
successors.The NDA I signed prohibits me from saying anything that would
help identify the code in question or anything about how it got
into Linux (I discuss the issue of secrecy further below). SCO did
not permit me to type the code, but I was told the Linux file name,
and I have a good memory for such things in any case.Here is what I think I can say about the code I saw. The code
is fairly trivial--the kind of stuff I wrote in school. The similar
portions of the code were some 80 lines or so. Looking around the
Net, I found close variants of the code, with the same comments and
variable names, in sources other than Linux distributions. The code
is not in a central part of the Linux kernel. The code does not
appear to have been contributed to Linux by SCO or Caldera. The
code exists in current versions of the Linux kernel.Also, oddly, my recollection of the code SCO showed me is not
precisely the same as any version I found in any Linux
distribution. The differences were in parts of the code that were
different from the Unix code. The copyright statement at the top of
the file also appeared to be different, though probably not
consequentially. However, because I was not permitted actually to
type the code, my memory could be playing tricks on me here.If this is SCO's only example of Unix code appearing in
Linux, I very much doubt there is any real legal liability for
Linux users. If the code is indeed derived from Unix, which is
unproven, it is roughly equivalent to typing in some code from a
basic computer programming text without permission. While I
hesitate to predict the actions of the legal system, it is very
difficult for me to believe that any judge actually would award
damages on the basis of this code.Naturally, SCO says many other examples exist, and it has
found at least 10 to 20 specific examples of direct copying. SCO
said there was much more derivative code. It claims there are cases
in which copied code intentionally was obfuscated and rearranged to
hide its origin. I commented I felt such a scenario would be
difficult to prove, and indeed I sincerely doubt that anybody would
bother.SCO said that only in the last month or two has it really
started analyzing Linux kernels for cases of copying. SCO claims it
steadily is finding more cases and that all of this will come out
in court.It's difficult to know what to make of this type of argument.
SCO showed me something that appears suggestive but that also
apparently is inconsequential. SCO claims to have much more
evidence, which I was not shown. It's tempting to conclude this is
SCO's best case and it has no strong evidence. After all, if SCO
can make its case to somebody like me, then it is in a stronger
position for extracting revenue by licensing Linux to customers who
are scared of lawsuits. But SCO may have other plans.I admit that SCO's example unsettled me by what it implies.
Although in itself trivial, it does suggest that some Linux
contributors may have been careless about copyright infringement.
That is unfortunate.My QuestionsAfter the presentation was over, I asked a few questions. I
asked SCO when it expected to go to court. The answer was document
discovery and depositions have begun. No court dates are
set.I asked why SCO sent letters to commercial users of Linux
distributions, but I was not given a satisfactory answer. SCO said
the letter was to make Linux users aware that it believes Linux is
tainted and contains unauthorized intellectual property. The letter
was to tell the Linux users they may have some liability and should
seek advice from counsel. SCO said Linux users then could go
through the same process of discovery that SCO presently is going
through--but, of course, the users can't, because they don't have
the Unix sources. My guess is the letters were to set themselves up
for Linux licensing.I asked whether SCO has any plans to license the Unix code to
Linux users, to remove the liability. SCO said it has no current
program. It hopes to come up with something in which noncommercial
use and educational use would be free, but for commercial use it
wants some remuneration. SCO said it hadn't come up with a plan
because it still is trying to figure out the scale of the problem.
SCO hopes to have some sort of solution by as early as July.SCO commented that Linux has no mechanism that ensures
ownership of the IP which goes into it. It said most Linux
developers are honorable, but some commercial entities are bending
the rules for their own benefit.I asked about the lawsuit between AT&T and BSDI. That
lawsuit was not ended by a judgment, it was settled between the
parties, and the settlement was in large part confidential. SCO,
which I presume is the legal inheritor of the AT&T side of the
settlement, claims some aspects of the settlement have not been
enforced but would not describe it further. SCO has not yet looked
into whether, in its opinion, the free BSDs legally are derivative
of the Unix sources. I assume if SCO can get a handle on the Linux
situation, it'll go after the free BSDs next.I paused for a while, trying to think of my next question,
and Chris Sontag said he had another meeting to attend and
left.Blake Stowell asked me what I would do if I owned some
proprietary code, and it was being used by other people without
permission. I said that Unix had been widely distributed for many
years, had been published in books and was not, after all, actually
written by anybody at SCO. I said I didn't think that was easily
compared to more conventional situations. Incidentally, Blake
Stowell worked at Lineo and joined Caldera in 2001. He agreed that
the company had radically changed since that time.That was the end of the meeting. The rest of this essay
discusses a few relevant topics in more detail.Derivative WorksThe key to SCO's case against IBM appears to be an expansive
notion of derivative works. SCO basically is arguing that any code
developed on top of Unix is a derivative work of Unix. It is
arguing that the contract with IBM, which SCO now owns, makes clear
that any work derivative of Unix must remain confidential.SCO is using a very extensive notion of derivative work. When
I made that objection, SCO said it was for the court to decide. It
is true that, so far as I know, no court has ever ruled on whether
one piece of software is derivative of another. The question is
whether a court would rule that even software entirely developed by
IBM, such as JFS, is a derivative work of Unix because it was
developed as a component of a Unix system. I think we can all agree
that Unix with JFS is a derivative work of Unix; the question is
whether JFS by itself is a derivative work.In general, the issue is where the boundary lies between
derivative works and independent works. All programs run on Unix
use a Unix API; do they therefore become derivative works?
Presumably not. However, when writing a program that runs on Unix,
I might look at Unix source code if I have access to it; does that
make my program a derivative work? It seems, from SCO's comments,
that it might claim this is so.I am not a lawyer. However, I hope the courts will not accept
SCO's broad definition of derivative work. I think it would be
dangerous for free software and for software development in
general. Software thrives by extending work done by others. If
adding a component to an existing piece of software means the
component is owned by the owner of the existing software, then few
people will add components. That would not be good for
anybody.It's worth noting that if a court does accept such a broad
notion of derivative work, it will weaken SCO's defense against the
allegations that Linux code was copied into UnixWare. That would
seem to put SCO on the horns of a dilemma; I don't know how it
plans to resolve it.SecrecyI asked a couple of times why SCO was being so secretive
about everything. The answers were not particularly convincing. SCO
said it was keeping its evidence secret because it is part of a
legal action. The evidence will be presented in court. SCO doesn't
want it to be tried in public before it is tried in court.SCO said the Unix code always has been provided under
confidentiality agreements, despite its wide distribution. It said
that until the parties go to court, it doesn't want the Linux
community to remove the code in question. SCO thinks it's more than
changing a few lines of code. As noted above, it feels large chunks
are derivative. It argued that even a full replacement would be in
part based on the prior effort, and thus would itself be
derivative, at least under the terms of the IBM contract.My guess is SCO would prefer not to have to reveal any of its
evidence. My guess is it would prefer to settle with IBM and to use
the spectre of liability to get licensing revenue from Linux users.
After all, in court SCO might lose. The current situation, in which
it makes people feel nervous, is better for SCO. I don't know if
I'm right, and if I am right I don't know how it will play
out.Chris Sontag appeared confident when he spoke to me. However,
my sense is SCO knows it has a weak hand, one it is playing as
strongly as it knows how. I expect SCO to keep upping the pressure
in the press, to announce a Linux licensing scheme and to hope to
start getting more revenue.IBM and PatentsIBM is a past master of the IP extortion strategy. For
example, see
this
Forbes article about IBM's shakedown
of Sun in Sun's early days. For SCO to attack IBM using IP is
somewhat like trying to eat a live tiger.If IBM starts to feel nervous about this suit, it will
unleash its patent portfolio. SCO is certain to be violating a
number of IBM patents. Unless some preexisting patent agreement
exists between SCO and IBM, SCO surely will lose against IBM's
countersuit.However, for IBM to unleash its patent portfolio against Unix
would not be a good thing for free software. After all, Linux
probably violates a number of those patents as well. Once the beast
is awakened, who knows when, or if, it will go back to sleep. The
best hope in such a case is that IBM will recognize the danger of
killing the goose with the golden eggs and lay off on its own
accord.It's worth noting that the people running SCO and their
lawyers may not appreciate the power of software patents. In my
experience, few people outside the profession understand the degree
to which every program of any scope violates patents. The software
industry today survives only through an unstated agreement not to
stir things up too much. We must hope this lawsuit isn't the big
stirring spoon.SCO Says They Are Not Against LinuxOne of the last things Chris Sontag said before he left is
SCO is not against Linux. SCO likes Linux. SCO wants to get to the
point where Linux can move forward.This may be a deep misunderstanding of the free software
process. If Linux becomes encumbered to the point where commercial
users must pay a fee, I expect that many independent developers
will stop working on it. Linux development will slow down and may
eventually stagnate. The people in charge at SCO may not understand
that.On the other hand, Chris Sontag's statement may simply have
been cynical and manipulative--the sort of thing that people say to
make malicious statements appear fair and open minded, as in "Joe
is a bloodthirsty cannibal, but I like him as a person".Red Hat and SCOI can't help thinking that as of this writing SCO has a
market cap of around $130 million and Red Hat has nearly $300
million in cash and investments. Even at an inflated price, Red Hat
could afford to buy SCO and free up Unix once and for all. Live the
dream.Linux CopyrightsI am not a Linux maintainer. But I would like to suggest that
this case make the Linux maintainers take the issues of copyright
paperwork seriously.First, I think all Linux contributors should consider their
own contributions. Is there any chance that they have contributed
code that is copied directly from Unix or any other non-free
source? Here I'm not talking about SCO's expanded sense of derived
work; I'm talking about direct copying, such as may (or may not)
have occurred in the one example SCO showed me. Any such directly
copied code should be rewritten in a different fashion, perhaps by
somebody else.Similarly, I think all Linux maintainers should consider the
code for which they are responsible and convince themselves that
the contributors did not do any direct copying. I personally doubt
that anybody is intentionally copying non-free code into Linux. But
mistakes can happen.Removal of any copied code, if there is any, won't affect the
lawsuit against IBM, but it may affect legal liability concerns for
Linux users.My next suggestion is that Linus and the Linux maintainers
form a foundation to hold copyright declarations for Linux. Linus
has made clear in the past that he does not want all the Linux
copyrights held in the same place. While that means there is no
single party who can be sued about a GPL violation, my impression
is Linus thinks that is an advantage.However, perhaps it would be okay to require all significant
Linux contributors to sign papers stating they own the code they
contribute and to require their employers to also sign papers. This
would be along the lines of the paperwork used by the Free Software
Foundation, but it wouldn't actually be a copyright
assignment.Such paperwork would not eliminate the possibility of a
mistake, nor the possibility of malicious code insertion. But I
think it would make such occurrences considerably less likely. It
would force people to think about the issue. It also might permit
moving any legal liability for copying from Linux users to Linux
contributors, which would be good for users. The increased risk for
contributors might make them more careful, though hopefully not too
careful.It would be necessary for somebody to monitor accepted
contributions and make sure that copyright declarations are signed
by all new contributors before each release. It would be
unreasonable to expect Linus or the other central maintainers to do
this work.I would be willing to help set up such a foundation, although
I don't think my help is required. The FSF started requiring
copyright assignments in the wake of the threats from Unipress over
the Gosling Emacs code. Perhaps the SCO lawsuit means Linux needs
to start tightening up its IP processes. In an ideal world this
would not be necessary, but unfortunately we must all live in this
world.Notes on the TripMy plane from San Francisco left 90 minutes late. I arrived
in Salt Lake City well after midnight and got lost driving to the
hotel. The next morning, I locked my keys in the car. Fortunately,
Avis repair service showed up in 25 minutes with a new key, but I
was then 20 minutes late getting to SCO. Rather than look like a
total idiot right off the bat, I told Blake Stowell that I "had
trouble with my rental car." He was very nice about it.My plane leaving Salt Lake City that afternoon hit a seagull
shortly after take off. We returned to the airport. After landing,
the pilot told us the windshield now had a small crack, and the
plane wasn't going anywhere. After disembarking, we were able to
look back at the plane--a rather gory sight. I have enough travel
experience that I immediately used my cell phone and booked a seat
on the next flight out. When that plane left, two hours later,
there was still a long line of people trying to get to San
Francisco that day.All told, on the trip I spent about $350, plus 25,000
frequent flier miles, plus 24 hours away from my family. Free
software has given me a lot over the years, and I can afford it. If
you want to contribute in support of my trip, please make a
donation to the
Free
Software Foundation,
the Electronic Frontier
Foundation or
Amnesty
International.ThanksOdd though it may seem, I would like to thank SCO for taking
the time to talk to me. The people I spoke with had to know when I
came in that I would not be on their side. But they played fair,
were polite and took me seriously. I'm sure both Chris Sontag and
Blake Stowell had better things to do than humor some random free
software developer.This essay received helpful comments from David
Henkel-Wallace and Karsten Self.
email: ian@airs.com










This week 5 lucky Members will receive a copy of The Official Ubuntu Server Book by Benjamin Mako Hill and Linux Journal's very own Kyle Rankin. No entry necessary. Check back here early next week to find out who the lucky Online Members are.




Comments
Re: My Visit to SCO
I don't understand what the fuss is over. SCO are well within their rights to sue IBM. Go SCO!!!
Re: My Visit to SCO
Of course this is their right - but to the "standard citizen" this looks a little bit wired - same as all this patent-lawsuits in this days.
Re: My Visit to SCO
I wonder, why still people are writing about this.
Re: My Visit to SCO
You mean this article - or SCO
Re: My Visit to SCO
I mean SCO. Aren't they broke, right now ???
I have to agree ...
It is a little bit much in these days 8-))))) .... let's hope that they run out of cash very quickly.
Re: My Visit to SCO
Does somebody have a patent on life 8-)))))
re:Patents
No, but for sure they will have in the next furure 8-))))
re:Patents
Yes, they sue you for all shit, right now.
What about the rest of the world??? I wonder
As I was reading it occurred to me that all this legal wrangling is going on in US court. I wonder if this is an opening for other countries to continue promote Open Source software more effectively than the US. It would seem to me that if US companies had to pay 300, 1000, whatever for each software product, and the rest of the world could get it for free to use in there locale, the US would be at a severe cost disadvantage.
Use the world's best and cheapest software, host it in Russia or Belize (wherever), might really tip the scales. Already I can see that shrink wrapped software sales is under pressure, grid computing and the internet could make remotely hosted software systems very attractive.
I don't know all the legal aspects, but I do knows that developing countries will be looking for competitive advantages. As IP becomes the strong market commodity in the future, it seems to me that countries that have the best terms will succeed in capturing market share. Isn't that how the US became an industrial powerhouse? Wasn't US law more entrepreneurial than England, where the industrial revolution began?
Re: My Visit to SCO
This is a great piece of article. In retrospect everything you've predicted have all come true. Wow! You have a new fan in me!
Re: My Visit to SCO
Doesn't the fact that there are jokes within the source code's comments suggest they were written by hippies and bums (Open Source programmers) rather than corporate developers (SCO or AT&T)? I just can't help thinking that these codes were indeed copied from Linux to SCO's stuff, not the other way around as SCO suggests.
Re: My Visit to SCO
I just heard SCO is started to send bills to those it sent the original letter. I recommend that anyone that receives a letter asking for payment to file a complaint with the ftc at http://www.ftc.gov.
Re: writing errors = software errors
As I read the comments of programmers, I noticed many speeling and grammatical errors. If they code like they write, no wonder there is so much buggy software!
Re: writing errors = software errors
Next time use spell check ... dork!
Re: writing errors = software errors
speeling? What's that.
Besides, for programming, we have the compiler to point out spelling mistakes.
Re: My Visit to SCO
The CEO of SCO is an SOB. The only winner in this copyright/patent dispute is, as usual, Microsoft. Bill Gates and his cohorts are jumping up and down with glee at seeing the rest of the software industry attacking and destroying each other. Consequently, I will be buying Microsoft stock.
Re: My Visit to SCO
Great article; great work. Thank you for your sacrificial efforts in regard to your visit to SCO. Your coverage and comments were tactful, well balanced, insightful, and helpful.
Randy
Re: My Visit to SCO
[SCO] said that until the parties go to court, it doesn't want the Linux community to remove the code in question.
Now that is an interesting. If SCO is making charges that there is Unix code in Linux, why does it not want to help the Linux community identify these violations and have said code removed/replaced in an expedient manner?
This, in and of itself, seems to be a suspect position to take.
General copyright question
If I have a copyrighted file and cuts out a piece of it (without copyright header) and send it to some newsgroup to ask a question about some problem I have with this piece of code, is then that code copyrighted or not?
If it is not, it would mean that every member of that newsgroup could do a cut and paste and have the identical code in their project even though that code was originally copyrighted.
I have no idea if this applies to the current issue but I am curious how the copyright laws works.
Re: My Visit to SCO
Very Intresting article, this does amount to a lot of debate, what happen when the boot is on the other foot for SCO, whate happens if the code originally came from the linux community. Makes you think doe it not. Sco is going bad, uses this example code which it obtained from the linux community, has a large bank balance and thinks lets give IBM a shake up and score some more money..
Intresting thought Eh, bye all from DownUnder
Re: My Visit to SCO
In general, the issue is where the boundary lies between derivative works and independent works. All programs run on Unix use a Unix API; do they therefore become derivative works? Presumably not. However, when writing a program that runs on Unix, I might look at Unix source code if I have access to it; does that make my program a derivative work? It seems, from SCO's comments, that it might claim this is so.
It sounds like the logical conclusion to this argument is that any attempt at compatibility with other software implies derivation. It'll be a scary day for the software industry if that holds up in court...the only way your app can be unencumbered is if you write your own custom OS to run it under, and use your own explicitly incompatible interfaces and file formats. OTOH, maybe I should see if I can find out who first implemented ASCII and buy the implied copyrights to it on the cheap before they catch on...
William Vollrath
You'll have to buy the rights from the numbers "1" and "0", and they can never agree :)
Re: My Visit to SCO
Great article, pretty clarifying in the middle of all those boring 20 A4 texta, if you ask me :)
Your Visit to SCO, the GPL, and FLOSS law/public policy
I have posted a longer reply to the Digital Copyright Canada forum which I hope people will consider reading.
Since SCO has nothing to loose given they were/are likely to go bankrupt anyway, I wonder if they are simply setting themselves up as a sinking-ship legal test case for a number of uncertainties in software law. They are touching on the limits of copyright licenses, what is a derivative work, software patents, trade secrets, damages for making knowledge public, enforceability of clauses of the GPL (given Caldera distributed Linux, who gets damages for their illegal distribution given they now claim proprietary rights against GPL'd code), and so-on.
While SCO/Caldera can no longer be taken seriously as a software company, I do believe we should all be taking the legal and public policy implications of this case very seriously. This case may cause many unanswered questions to get answered, and if we are not proactive they may not be answered in what we would consider a reasonable/logical way.
What I am asking is that people become more active in the legal and policy questions that these cases are bringing forward. Don't underestimate the lack of knowledge that courts and policy makers have about Free Software and all the positive implications of what we are doing! We have something very important we are protecting, and should take every avenue we have available to us to protect it.
Re: My Visit to SCO
Reminds me of a lawsuit many many decades ago in Europe, where a very popular artist painted on the table cloth. The restaurant owner claimed the piece because it was painted on his property, yet the court decided that the artwork as such was property of the artist and that the artist had to pay the restaurant owner only for the table cloth it was painted on (probably cents in comparison to the 1000 of $s which the painting was worth).
Re: My Visit to SCO
It would be very interesting if Linux source-code from Caldera bought by SCO was put into SCO's products. If this would be the case the GPL demands to reveal all the SCO sources which include little pieces or bigger parts of these linux-sources.
Maybe a sue from the open source community would be more justifiable then the other way round.
Re: My Visit to SCO
SCO's NDA sounds like a Labraya [sic] tarpit trap for linux users and developers. As such perhaps we should start viewing it through an anti-trust lens.
IP rights vs. Licencing rights
First, many thanks to IanLanceTaylor for taking the trouble to listen at SCO's nonsense and writting this clearifying article to the benefit of the Linux comunity.
Now, let's not miss the central issue as it affects Linux users and vendors anyway. Any US court will be compeled to distinguish between property rights and licencing rights. Even if any component of AIX is indeed derivative work (BTW, a big IF), it would only affect the licencing contract between IBM and ATT (now SCO), and not the fact that the new AIX components indeed belong to IBM. All SCO can try is to get a penalty from IBM for violation of the licencing agreement. As all these new AIX components, whether derivative or not, still belongs entirely to IBM, the Linux-GPL licencing by IBM cannot be revoked, nullified or terminated by SCO. Linux users and vendors may well alege that the code they are using belongs to IBM and is released under GPL by it's owner (IBM). Therefore they are not in violation of any SCO IP, and the licencing issues relating to the original System V is to be dealt out with IBM, not with the Linux users or vendors.
Even as SCO tries to teminate IBM-ATT's original licencing contract, the code written by IBM for AIX still belongs to IBM, not to SCO. Therefore SCO still has no right to ask for fees to Linux vendors or users.
On the other hand, as SCO might expect a penalty from IBM, they might as well expect further IP violation thunderstorms from IBM. It is my speculation that it'll all turn out to be a "get rich quick and leave for good" move by SCO's shareholding management.
IP rights vs. Licencing rights
First, many thanks to IanLanceTaylor for taking the trouble to listen at SCO's nonsense in the benefit of the Linux comunity.
Now, let's not miss the central issue as it affects Linux users and vendors anyway. Any US court will be compeled to distinguish between property rights and licencing rights. Even if any component of AIX is indeed derivative work (BTW, a big IF), it would only affect the licencing contract between IBM and ATT (now SCO), and not the fact that the new AIX components indeed belong to IBM. All SCO can try is to get a penalty from IBM for violation of the licencing agreement. As all these new AIX components, whether derivative or not, still belongs entirely to IBM, the Linux-GPL licencing by IBM cannot be revoked, nullified or terminated by SCO. Linux users and vendors may well alege that the code they are using belongs to IBM and is released under GPL by it's owner (IBM). Therefore they are not in violation of any SCO IP, and the licencing issues relating to the original System V is to be dealt out with IBM, not with the Linux users or vendors.
Even as SCO tries to teminate IBM-ATT's original licencing contract, the code written by IBM for AIX still belongs to IBM, not to SCO. Therefore SCO still has no right to ask for fees to Linux vendors or users.
On the other hand, as SCO might expect a penalty from IBM, they might as well expect further IP violation thunderstorms from IBM. It is my speculation that it'll all turn out to be a "get rich quick and leave for good" move by SCO's shareholding management.
Let me explain "derivative work"
A derivative work is any material created by modifying or incorporating any previous work. FreeBSD 5.1 is a derivative work of FreeBSD 5.0 and FreeBSD 2.0 is a derivative work of one of the BSD releases.
Likewise, the JFS code makes Linux a derivative work of OS/2, for example.
This is all basic copyright law that has been well-understood since the early days of U.S. intellectual properties law. It's not in dispute.
SCO is making a number of claims. Apparently, according to SCO, IBM was contractually required to keep technologies developed for its UNIX-derived works secret. Thus JFS is tainted by the contract, not copyright law. Even rewriting the code from scratch for OS/2 wouldn't solve that problem, but it's not the code that IBM's UNIX license places the restrictions on.
The way I see it, our best-case scenario is that SCO'll turn up a few insignificant cases of copyright infringement in the form of small blocks of code that'll need to be rewritten for Linux. People make slip-ups like that, and Linux developers probably haven't maintained 100% perfection throughout the history of the OS.
The worst case scenario is that SCO will win on the contractual issues and there'll be an injunction against the use of certain IBM inventions outside of UNIX.
Losing directly on the trade secret issues (without losing on the contractual issue) wouldn't be as bad, since IBM would end up paying a financial judgement to SCO, and SCO would lose its trade secrets. Once a trade secret is disclosed, it ceases to exist even if you successfully sue the people that released the information.
Re: Let me explain
Sorry but you are wrong. Your BSD example is correct with regards to derivative works. However, with regards to JFS, since it's not BASED on an existing SVR5 file system, it is an INNOVATION, and not a DERIVATION. The derivation concept does not apply. If JFS 1.0 was present in SVR5 as LogFS, IBM took that code, rewrote and improved it, then JFS would be a derivative of SVR5. Have you looked back at what was in the original AT&T SVR5? There's nothing like JFS, RCU, or NUMA even remotely attempted in there.
Re: My Visit to SCO
There needs to be a bit morelight shed on SCO's financial position. I have heard comments that SCO is financially in the dumpers and heading for bankruptcy when the suit idea surfaced. MS got the idea that SCO was a good proxy warrior against Linux, and popped for the money to let SCO continue. Now, unless SCO prevails and wins a bundle in damages from someone who will actually pay up, it's on to bankruptcy again.
A desperate move by desperate people, supported by a sideline sitter with a most vested interest.
Let IBM just wait it out ...
A lawyer told me once "delay" was a powerful legal weapon. Here's a much more satisfying projection: why not wait SCO out. Theoretically the small corp has the same rights as IBM, but just like an OJ trial - money talks. And buys you time. IBM (and RedHat) could probably delay the proceedings until SCO's cash runs out for much less money than it would cost to buy the company.
Re: Let IBM just wait it out ...
>IBM (and RedHat) could probably delay the proceedings
>until SCO's cash runs out for much less money than
> it would cost to buy the company.
That's right, but _some_ companies can invest some amounts of money in SCO, say, as licensing fees. As they did, in fact. As SCO does not develop anything now, it can fire all its personel, except CEO, PR and lawyers and thus minimize its outcomes. It could take a lOOOOng to wait for SCO's bankruptcy.
Re: My Visit to SCO
Thanks for your efforts and dilligence in reporting.
It would seem to me that a reasonable interpretation of SCO's derivative works policy indicates that all of the code ever written is derivative of that which came before it. Eventually, you would get to the point of INTEL, MOTOROLA, TI, NATIONAL SEMICONDUCTOR, and perhaps a couple of others who own the microcode for their processors and PLAs, having a claim to everything written. It is pretty ludicrous but then, so is SCOs assertion. (If we are accurate in assuming that they are claiming that linking to a API constitutes a derivative work)
If I owned any SCO stock, now would be a great time to divest. The counter suits of which you spoke would seem to be a very likely outcome. I suspect that in five years, there will be only a memory of an entity known as SCO.
s.m. dupree
knoxville, tn
William Vollrath
Take it further. All information processing is thus likely owned by the heirs of Boole
William Vollrath
And any useful thing ever created using a computer is thus jointly owned by the numbers "1" and "0"
Re: My Visit to SCO
The first thing that I feel IBM needs to do is ask The SCO Group, "Prove you own the Unix copyrights".
Novell states they did not transfer Unix copyrights over when the code was bought. Here is an excerpt of Novell's statement:
Importantly, and contrary to SCO's assertions, SCO is not the owner of the UNIX copyrights. Not only would a quick check of U.S. Copyright Office records reveal this fact, but a review of the asset transfer agreement between Novell and SCO confirms it. To Novell's knowledge, the 1995 agreement governing SCO's purchase of UNIX from Novell does not convey to SCO the associated copyrights. We believe it unlikely that SCO can demonstrate that it has any ownership interest whatsoever in those copyrights. Apparently, you share this view, since over the last few months you have repeatedly asked Novell to transfer the copyrights to SCO, requests that Novell has rejected. Finally, we find it telling that SCO failed to assert a claim for copyright or patent infringement against IBM.
The detailed article can be found here, on Novell's site:
http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/2003/05/pr03033.html
Re: My Visit to SCO
The first thing that I feel IBM needs to do is ask The SCO Group, "Prove you own the Unix copyrights".
Novell states they did not transfer Unix copyrights over when the code was bought. Here is an excerpt of Novell's statement:
Importantly, and contrary to SCO's assertions, SCO is not the owner of the UNIX copyrights. Not only would a quick check of U.S. Copyright Office records reveal this fact, but a review of the asset transfer agreement between Novell and SCO confirms it. To Novell's knowledge, the 1995 agreement governing SCO's purchase of UNIX from Novell does not convey to SCO the associated copyrights. We believe it unlikely that SCO can demonstrate that it has any ownership interest whatsoever in those copyrights. Apparently, you share this view, since over the last few months you have repeatedly asked Novell to transfer the copyrights to SCO, requests that Novell has rejected. Finally, we find it telling that SCO failed to assert a claim for copyright or patent infringement against IBM.
The detailed article can be found here, on Novell's site:
http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/2003/05/pr03033.html
Re: My Visit to SCO
Is it possible that they are trying to force a legal
judgement on "derivative works" in order to set
a precedent for a future assault on the GPL? Ok,
putting on my little foil conspiracy beanie... Could
they (with MSoft backing) be setting themselves
up to fail in the derivative works argument?
Cary
Re: My Visit to SCO
Thanks so much for the essay. I must say, though I would freely contribute to the Free Software Foundation and the Electronic Frontier Foundation, Amnesty International is right out.
>
Re: My Visit to SCO
Their concept of owning of a derivitive work has nothing to do either with the GPL and/or copyleft, or even with copyright law. What they are saying, taken to it's logical conclusion, is that a wholy original and seperately produced work (such as SGI Numa or IBM JFS), once it is compiled and used with Unix, even if originally developed elsewhere or for other operating systems first, suddenly, the original authors or companies loose all rights to that said work. Such a notion is clearly perposterous.
Re: My Visit to SCO
WIth the licensing of many analysis tools on the proprietary market (IBM, MATCAD, MS, etc.) costing millions, corporatations are looking more and more frequently to open source software (GPL) to create the tools they need for development. Look at Boeing, Raytheon, and Lockheed....how many of their in-development research projects are being worked with Linux and GPL tools? Gobbs more than the rest of you will ever know as most of the projects have military applications and are thusly classified. Screw SCO! The have a substandard product, and are just blatantly attempting to mug the corporate Linux users. This is exactly the same crap that mobsters did to America in the '30s and it took the judicial branch of the government 70+ years to un-***** the situation.
derived from Linux ???
Great your statement ...
" In general, the issue is where the boundary lies between derivative works and independent works. All programs run on Unix use a Unix API; do they therefore become derivative works? Presumably not. However, when writing a program that runs on Unix, I might look at Unix source code if I have access to it; does that make my program a derivative work? It seems, from SCO's comments, that it might claim this is so."
So in other words their trying to make Linux programs running under UNIX, they consider UNIX to be a derivative work of Linux ? How else could they have accomplished this task w/o looking at the kernel sources ?
Linux vendor consortium should buy SCO
I'd suggest that, rather than having a single vendor or Linux user charity buy up SCO, the best way forwards would be for all the major Linux vendors/supporters to club together to buy up SCO, with contributions weighted by sales. A charity won't get enough subscribers, and any single vendor would be put at a severe disadvantage.
Of course this does have the downside of handing a large amount of money to some parasites, but hey, thats the commercial world. Always has been (look up the James Watt crankshaft patent in Google) and probably always will be, although the law can be changed to reduce it.
Paul.
Re: My Visit to SCO
sco doesn't have *any* jurical role in this masquerade
the linux kernel is the very same kernel they shipped with caldera, which means their acceptance for whatever was in that kernel, to be made public, implicitly voiding whatever they claim today, retroactive
there is no court in the country to encourage completely un-fonded claims and to spend more than a half an hour with this abomination...
those guys should start thinking on their resumees... :-)
ps
thx 4 the details...
this is not true
AFAIK
they have one of the best lawyers. Please consider that they recon
you can not contribute your code to GPL if you are not aware of it. This is part of the GPL.
So all they have to say/prove is that they did not know what they were selling. We have to find out how we can prove the opposite.
Please before making every one in the Linux comunity think it is as easy as this read the GPL or say that this is your oppinion.
Do not under estimate your enemy, they are not stupid, they are graving all our money and to rule the UNIX world.
Re: this is not true
you can not contribute your code to GPL if you are not aware of it. This is part of the GPL.
Where exactly does it say this, and what is the wording? I've read through the whole GPL, (I skimmed some parts, I admit...but only sections which I didn't think would have this in it.) and I can't seem to find it.
So all they have to say/prove is that they did not know what they were selling.
So basically, they have to say they were stupid, and deserve compensation for that fact. I don't know of many CEO's that would admit they were stupid.
Re: this is not true
>> I don't know of many CEO's that would admit they were stupid.
I bet you could find a few who would admit to being stupid for a $3B windfall to a $130M company. Even I would, if it weren't for the ethics. I think it's clear that ethical considerations aren't real high on SCO's list.
Post new comment