My Visit to SCO
June 19th, 2003 by Ian Lance Taylor in
This essay describes my visit to SCO on June 17, 2003, to discuss SCO's claim that Linux infringes on its intellectual property rights. I visited the SCO office in Lindon, Utah, for about one hour. I spoke with Chris Sontag, Senior Vice President, Operating Systems Division, and with Blake Stowell, Director of Public Relations. In order to speak with them, I signed a non-disclosure agreement.
The short version of this essay is SCO's claims are unproven, as I expected would be the case before I went. The amount of information SCO was willing to show me was extremely limited, and it did not by itself prove that SCO's claims were true nor that its claims were false.
I won't give the full background here, as it is well covered elsewhere, such as on Karsten Self's page. The short version, as of June 17, 2003, is SCO has sued IBM, alleging that IBM took work that was the intellectual property of SCO and incorporated it into Linux (when I say "Linux" in this essay, I mean specifically the Linux kernel, not a complete distribution). SCO is the current owner of Unix, which originally was developed by AT&T. SCO, which used to be named Caldera, purchased the rights to Unix from a different company named SCO, which has since changed its name to Tarantella. Along with Unix, SCO purchased a number of contractual agreements, including one with IBM. SCO is alleging that IBM has violated that contract.
SCO also sent a letter to some 1,500 commercial users of Linux distributions, warning them that Linux may be an unauthorized derivative of code owned by SCO. That is, SCO alleges that Linux actually to some extent is owned by SCO and may not be distributed under the GPL. The letter further claims that users of Linux may have legal liability because of this.
SCO said it would provide evidence that Linux is a derivative of Unix to independent analysts. With the help of Don Marti, Editor in Chief of Linux Journal, I contacted SCO and offered to be one of those analysts. SCO agreed, subject to my signing the NDA and traveling to its headquarters in Lindon, Utah.
SCO's legal case is complicated by the fact that when SCO was named Caldera it was itself a Linux distributor, and it may have distributed, under the GPL, the code which it now claims to own. It also complicated by allegations that SCO has incorporated Linux code under the GPL into UnixWare. These issues may indeed cause SCO's legal case to founder, but not in the way I would prefer it to founder.
I took the trouble to visit SCO because I care about what happens to free software in general and Linux in particular. The SCO claims have put a cloud over Linux. I have heard speculation from business acquaintances that the free versions of Linux will be shunned by corporate IT users, who will be unwilling to take the legal risk of using it. I don't think that would be good for Linux or for free software.
I remember the AT&T case against BSDI and the University of California, which arguably stalled BSD development for a few years. Indeed, it arguably was the root cause of Linux's popularity, because Linux development was not stalled. SCO's case against IBM is in some ways a reprisal of the AT&T case, and I fear that it has a similar potential to stall Linux development.
SCO was willing to speak only with people who signed a Draconian non-disclosure agreement (NDA), one which essentially permitted SCO to declare any information it provided to be confidential, regardless of whether the signer already knew it, and which offered no circumstances under which that information could be revealed. Most Linux developers are unable to sign such an NDA, as it easily could prevent them from ever again working on the kernel. Similarly, employees of any company that works with Linux cannot sign such an NDA.
I have never contributed to the Linux kernel myself. However, I have worked with free software for over 10 years, including acting as a maintainer for projects owned by the Free Software Foundation. I have plenty of personal knowledge of how free software development works. I currently am not employed by anybody, but simply working as a contractor on work not related to Linux.
Thus, I felt going in that I was in a good position to sign the NDA and to analyze the information that SCO presented to me. While SCO easily could have made it impossible for me to contribute to the Linux kernel, it had no reason to do so. In any case, I had no particular plans to do any kernel work.
Before going to meet SCO, I asked three times if it would be willing to change the NDA. I suggested that SCO should change the NDA to permit the disclosure of information when legally required by a court and to permit the disclosure of information when SCO specifically agrees to it. I also suggested the NDA should be changed so that information I already knew before meeting could not be treated confidential. The only response I received was SCO forwarded my suggestions to its counsel.
As it turned out, SCO actually showed me very little confidential information.
As mentioned above, I met with Chris Sontag and Blake Stowell. Chris Sontag did almost all the talking. In general, below I say "SCO says" and so forth, but Chris Sontag was the one who actually was talking.
Chris Sontag showed me a series of PowerPoint (I assume) slides and talked about them. I took notes on my laptop. He listened to my questions and tried to answer them. He did not show me anything beyond his planned presentation, despite my requests for some additional information. This presentation was not the same as the one described by The Inquirer. This one was divided into three main topics: SCO owns Unix, SCO vs. IBM and Linux is tainted.
SCO argues it purchased full rights to Unix from the old SCO, which purchased the rights from Novell. The Unix patents still are owned by AT&T, but SCO has purchased the right to use them. There was a dispute with Novell over copyright ownership, but SCO claims this has been resolved and SCO does indeed own the copyrights.
In general, SCO claims to have purchased all rights to all versions of Unix System V and all prior versions of Unix, which were developed by AT&T.
My concerns are with free software, not the actual ownership of Unix. I believed at the start of the lawsuit that SCO owned the rights to Unix, and I suppose I still am willing to believe that. I think that any legal issues here clearly are a matter of the purchase contract between Novell and the original SCO, and it should be more or less straightforward for the new SCO and Novell to settle them.
The main issue of interest to me is whether rights to early versions of Unix have been weakened by the wide spread distribution of source code, including the publication of the Lions book and the fact that, until recently, the new SCO was distributing Unix source code for free on its FTP site.
SCO is suing IBM for breach of contract, unfair competition, tortious interference and misappropriation of trade secrets. SCO is now the owner of the contract that IBM originally signed with AT&T (I assume, but maybe some later owner) to develop AIX. That contract requires derivative works remain part of AIX. It also requires IBM to maintain confidentiality of sources and derivative code. Derivative works are allowed "provided resulting materials are treated as part of the original software products."
SCO has a list of about 20 IBM engineers who are, it claims, using AIX methods in Linux. SCO claims that some of these engineers literally are looking at AIX source code as they discuss Linux issues and making recommendations based on the AIX code.
SCO claims this is inappropriate because everything built on top of AIX or using methods developed in AIX is really a derived work of Unix. As we talked, I realized this is a key part of SCO's argument. SCO claims that anything built on top of Unix is itself a derived work of Unix. I will discuss this further below.
SCO said that besides IBM, Sequent has contributed code to Linux which is derived from Unix. Sequent is now a subsidiary of IBM.
SCO also claims that some of the derivative works IBM contributed to Linux include NUMA, RCU, JFS, SMP, performance measurement and improvements, serviceability, scheduler improvements, LinuxPPC 32 and 64 bit support, logical partition support. Sontag moved on to the next slide before I typed down the rest of the list.
I asked specifically about JFS, because I know that was originally developed for OS/2. SCO claims that JFS was originally developed for AIX, then ported to OS/2, then ported back to AIX; the port back to AIX was the basis for the Linux port. Chris Sontag said this was straight from the JFS web page. I just checked, and the JFS web page does not entirely agree. There IBM says that while JFS was first developed for AIX, the development for OS/2 was a new effort; the Linux port was based on the OS/2 work, not the port back to AIX. Using SCO's expansive definition of derivative work, arguably the development on OS/2 was based on the original AIX development, as some of the same people may have worked on it and used their experience with the AIX code.
Again, despite all this discussion, the whole issue of SCO vs. IBM was not the reason I was there. If IBM did indeed breach its contract, I suppose it should pay some appropriate penalty. I've been around the computer world too long to think that IBM is on the right side of every issue. However, SCO's presentation did not show me any clear evidence that IBM did indeed breach its contract. Obviously, IBM has contributed code to Linux, but it is not at all clear to me that such code is a derivative of Unix.
Here, we come to the meat of the issue: has code clearly derived from Unix been incorporated into Linux? Unfortunately, SCO was willing to show me only one example. I was shown a source file Sontag said was from SVR4, which was compared to a source file from Linux. The identical portions of the code were highlighted. There were indeed substantial similarities in the code: very similar comment text, the same variable names, the same algorithm. There also were some differences, but it seemed quite plausible that both pieces of code came from the same source.
SCO refused to show me the revision history of the Unix file. I pointed out this made it impossible to judge the order of derivation; SCO agreed, and said it was a matter of discovery for the court case. SCO said it is confident the code had not appeared in BSD and was developed internally at AT&T and successors.
The NDA I signed prohibits me from saying anything that would help identify the code in question or anything about how it got into Linux (I discuss the issue of secrecy further below). SCO did not permit me to type the code, but I was told the Linux file name, and I have a good memory for such things in any case.
Here is what I think I can say about the code I saw. The code is fairly trivial--the kind of stuff I wrote in school. The similar portions of the code were some 80 lines or so. Looking around the Net, I found close variants of the code, with the same comments and variable names, in sources other than Linux distributions. The code is not in a central part of the Linux kernel. The code does not appear to have been contributed to Linux by SCO or Caldera. The code exists in current versions of the Linux kernel.
Also, oddly, my recollection of the code SCO showed me is not precisely the same as any version I found in any Linux distribution. The differences were in parts of the code that were different from the Unix code. The copyright statement at the top of the file also appeared to be different, though probably not consequentially. However, because I was not permitted actually to type the code, my memory could be playing tricks on me here.
If this is SCO's only example of Unix code appearing in Linux, I very much doubt there is any real legal liability for Linux users. If the code is indeed derived from Unix, which is unproven, it is roughly equivalent to typing in some code from a basic computer programming text without permission. While I hesitate to predict the actions of the legal system, it is very difficult for me to believe that any judge actually would award damages on the basis of this code.
Naturally, SCO says many other examples exist, and it has found at least 10 to 20 specific examples of direct copying. SCO said there was much more derivative code. It claims there are cases in which copied code intentionally was obfuscated and rearranged to hide its origin. I commented I felt such a scenario would be difficult to prove, and indeed I sincerely doubt that anybody would bother.
SCO said that only in the last month or two has it really started analyzing Linux kernels for cases of copying. SCO claims it steadily is finding more cases and that all of this will come out in court.
It's difficult to know what to make of this type of argument. SCO showed me something that appears suggestive but that also apparently is inconsequential. SCO claims to have much more evidence, which I was not shown. It's tempting to conclude this is SCO's best case and it has no strong evidence. After all, if SCO can make its case to somebody like me, then it is in a stronger position for extracting revenue by licensing Linux to customers who are scared of lawsuits. But SCO may have other plans.
I admit that SCO's example unsettled me by what it implies. Although in itself trivial, it does suggest that some Linux contributors may have been careless about copyright infringement. That is unfortunate.
After the presentation was over, I asked a few questions. I asked SCO when it expected to go to court. The answer was document discovery and depositions have begun. No court dates are set.
I asked why SCO sent letters to commercial users of Linux distributions, but I was not given a satisfactory answer. SCO said the letter was to make Linux users aware that it believes Linux is tainted and contains unauthorized intellectual property. The letter was to tell the Linux users they may have some liability and should seek advice from counsel. SCO said Linux users then could go through the same process of discovery that SCO presently is going through--but, of course, the users can't, because they don't have the Unix sources. My guess is the letters were to set themselves up for Linux licensing.
I asked whether SCO has any plans to license the Unix code to Linux users, to remove the liability. SCO said it has no current program. It hopes to come up with something in which noncommercial use and educational use would be free, but for commercial use it wants some remuneration. SCO said it hadn't come up with a plan because it still is trying to figure out the scale of the problem. SCO hopes to have some sort of solution by as early as July.
SCO commented that Linux has no mechanism that ensures ownership of the IP which goes into it. It said most Linux developers are honorable, but some commercial entities are bending the rules for their own benefit.
I asked about the lawsuit between AT&T and BSDI. That lawsuit was not ended by a judgment, it was settled between the parties, and the settlement was in large part confidential. SCO, which I presume is the legal inheritor of the AT&T side of the settlement, claims some aspects of the settlement have not been enforced but would not describe it further. SCO has not yet looked into whether, in its opinion, the free BSDs legally are derivative of the Unix sources. I assume if SCO can get a handle on the Linux situation, it'll go after the free BSDs next.
I paused for a while, trying to think of my next question, and Chris Sontag said he had another meeting to attend and left.
Blake Stowell asked me what I would do if I owned some proprietary code, and it was being used by other people without permission. I said that Unix had been widely distributed for many years, had been published in books and was not, after all, actually written by anybody at SCO. I said I didn't think that was easily compared to more conventional situations. Incidentally, Blake Stowell worked at Lineo and joined Caldera in 2001. He agreed that the company had radically changed since that time.
That was the end of the meeting. The rest of this essay discusses a few relevant topics in more detail.
The key to SCO's case against IBM appears to be an expansive notion of derivative works. SCO basically is arguing that any code developed on top of Unix is a derivative work of Unix. It is arguing that the contract with IBM, which SCO now owns, makes clear that any work derivative of Unix must remain confidential.
SCO is using a very extensive notion of derivative work. When I made that objection, SCO said it was for the court to decide. It is true that, so far as I know, no court has ever ruled on whether one piece of software is derivative of another. The question is whether a court would rule that even software entirely developed by IBM, such as JFS, is a derivative work of Unix because it was developed as a component of a Unix system. I think we can all agree that Unix with JFS is a derivative work of Unix; the question is whether JFS by itself is a derivative work.
In general, the issue is where the boundary lies between derivative works and independent works. All programs run on Unix use a Unix API; do they therefore become derivative works? Presumably not. However, when writing a program that runs on Unix, I might look at Unix source code if I have access to it; does that make my program a derivative work? It seems, from SCO's comments, that it might claim this is so.
I am not a lawyer. However, I hope the courts will not accept SCO's broad definition of derivative work. I think it would be dangerous for free software and for software development in general. Software thrives by extending work done by others. If adding a component to an existing piece of software means the component is owned by the owner of the existing software, then few people will add components. That would not be good for anybody.
It's worth noting that if a court does accept such a broad notion of derivative work, it will weaken SCO's defense against the allegations that Linux code was copied into UnixWare. That would seem to put SCO on the horns of a dilemma; I don't know how it plans to resolve it.
I asked a couple of times why SCO was being so secretive about everything. The answers were not particularly convincing. SCO said it was keeping its evidence secret because it is part of a legal action. The evidence will be presented in court. SCO doesn't want it to be tried in public before it is tried in court.
SCO said the Unix code always has been provided under confidentiality agreements, despite its wide distribution. It said that until the parties go to court, it doesn't want the Linux community to remove the code in question. SCO thinks it's more than changing a few lines of code. As noted above, it feels large chunks are derivative. It argued that even a full replacement would be in part based on the prior effort, and thus would itself be derivative, at least under the terms of the IBM contract.
My guess is SCO would prefer not to have to reveal any of its evidence. My guess is it would prefer to settle with IBM and to use the spectre of liability to get licensing revenue from Linux users. After all, in court SCO might lose. The current situation, in which it makes people feel nervous, is better for SCO. I don't know if I'm right, and if I am right I don't know how it will play out.
Chris Sontag appeared confident when he spoke to me. However, my sense is SCO knows it has a weak hand, one it is playing as strongly as it knows how. I expect SCO to keep upping the pressure in the press, to announce a Linux licensing scheme and to hope to start getting more revenue.
IBM is a past master of the IP extortion strategy. For example, see this Forbes article about IBM's shakedown of Sun in Sun's early days. For SCO to attack IBM using IP is somewhat like trying to eat a live tiger.
If IBM starts to feel nervous about this suit, it will unleash its patent portfolio. SCO is certain to be violating a number of IBM patents. Unless some preexisting patent agreement exists between SCO and IBM, SCO surely will lose against IBM's countersuit.
However, for IBM to unleash its patent portfolio against Unix would not be a good thing for free software. After all, Linux probably violates a number of those patents as well. Once the beast is awakened, who knows when, or if, it will go back to sleep. The best hope in such a case is that IBM will recognize the danger of killing the goose with the golden eggs and lay off on its own accord.
It's worth noting that the people running SCO and their lawyers may not appreciate the power of software patents. In my experience, few people outside the profession understand the degree to which every program of any scope violates patents. The software industry today survives only through an unstated agreement not to stir things up too much. We must hope this lawsuit isn't the big stirring spoon.
One of the last things Chris Sontag said before he left is SCO is not against Linux. SCO likes Linux. SCO wants to get to the point where Linux can move forward.
This may be a deep misunderstanding of the free software process. If Linux becomes encumbered to the point where commercial users must pay a fee, I expect that many independent developers will stop working on it. Linux development will slow down and may eventually stagnate. The people in charge at SCO may not understand that.
On the other hand, Chris Sontag's statement may simply have been cynical and manipulative--the sort of thing that people say to make malicious statements appear fair and open minded, as in "Joe is a bloodthirsty cannibal, but I like him as a person".
I can't help thinking that as of this writing SCO has a market cap of around $130 million and Red Hat has nearly $300 million in cash and investments. Even at an inflated price, Red Hat could afford to buy SCO and free up Unix once and for all. Live the dream.
I am not a Linux maintainer. But I would like to suggest that this case make the Linux maintainers take the issues of copyright paperwork seriously.
First, I think all Linux contributors should consider their own contributions. Is there any chance that they have contributed code that is copied directly from Unix or any other non-free source? Here I'm not talking about SCO's expanded sense of derived work; I'm talking about direct copying, such as may (or may not) have occurred in the one example SCO showed me. Any such directly copied code should be rewritten in a different fashion, perhaps by somebody else.
Similarly, I think all Linux maintainers should consider the code for which they are responsible and convince themselves that the contributors did not do any direct copying. I personally doubt that anybody is intentionally copying non-free code into Linux. But mistakes can happen.
Removal of any copied code, if there is any, won't affect the lawsuit against IBM, but it may affect legal liability concerns for Linux users.
My next suggestion is that Linus and the Linux maintainers form a foundation to hold copyright declarations for Linux. Linus has made clear in the past that he does not want all the Linux copyrights held in the same place. While that means there is no single party who can be sued about a GPL violation, my impression is Linus thinks that is an advantage.
However, perhaps it would be okay to require all significant Linux contributors to sign papers stating they own the code they contribute and to require their employers to also sign papers. This would be along the lines of the paperwork used by the Free Software Foundation, but it wouldn't actually be a copyright assignment.
Such paperwork would not eliminate the possibility of a mistake, nor the possibility of malicious code insertion. But I think it would make such occurrences considerably less likely. It would force people to think about the issue. It also might permit moving any legal liability for copying from Linux users to Linux contributors, which would be good for users. The increased risk for contributors might make them more careful, though hopefully not too careful.
It would be necessary for somebody to monitor accepted contributions and make sure that copyright declarations are signed by all new contributors before each release. It would be unreasonable to expect Linus or the other central maintainers to do this work.
I would be willing to help set up such a foundation, although I don't think my help is required. The FSF started requiring copyright assignments in the wake of the threats from Unipress over the Gosling Emacs code. Perhaps the SCO lawsuit means Linux needs to start tightening up its IP processes. In an ideal world this would not be necessary, but unfortunately we must all live in this world.
My plane from San Francisco left 90 minutes late. I arrived in Salt Lake City well after midnight and got lost driving to the hotel. The next morning, I locked my keys in the car. Fortunately, Avis repair service showed up in 25 minutes with a new key, but I was then 20 minutes late getting to SCO. Rather than look like a total idiot right off the bat, I told Blake Stowell that I "had trouble with my rental car." He was very nice about it.
My plane leaving Salt Lake City that afternoon hit a seagull shortly after take off. We returned to the airport. After landing, the pilot told us the windshield now had a small crack, and the plane wasn't going anywhere. After disembarking, we were able to look back at the plane--a rather gory sight. I have enough travel experience that I immediately used my cell phone and booked a seat on the next flight out. When that plane left, two hours later, there was still a long line of people trying to get to San Francisco that day.
All told, on the trip I spent about $350, plus 25,000 frequent flier miles, plus 24 hours away from my family. Free software has given me a lot over the years, and I can afford it. If you want to contribute in support of my trip, please make a donation to the Free Software Foundation, the Electronic Frontier Foundation or Amnesty International.
Odd though it may seem, I would like to thank SCO for taking the time to talk to me. The people I spoke with had to know when I came in that I would not be on their side. But they played fair, were polite and took me seriously. I'm sure both Chris Sontag and Blake Stowell had better things to do than humor some random free software developer.
This essay received helpful comments from David Henkel-Wallace and Karsten Self.
Subscribe now!
Breaking News
| AMD Calls Out Intel...We Think. | 2 days 20 hours ago |
| Bye-Bye TorrentSpy, So Long MPAA's Money | 2 days 22 hours ago |
| Sun Finds the Keys to Unlock MySQL | 4 days 17 hours ago |
| New Powers on the Throne – or Heads on the Block – at OLPC | 5 days 16 hours ago |
Featured Video
Linux Journal Gadget Guy, Shawn Powers, takes us through installing Ubuntu on a machine running Windows with the Wubi installer.
Live From the Field
The latest posts from the Linux Journal team.
Delicious
Digg
Reddit
Newsvine
Technorati






Re: My Visit to SCO
On March 2nd, 2004 Anonymous says:
I don't understand what the fuss is over. SCO are well within their rights to sue IBM. Go SCO!!!
Re: My Visit to SCO
On December 28th, 2005 Buddy Miller (not verified) says:
Of course this is their right - but to the "standard citizen" this looks a little bit wired - same as all this patent-lawsuits in this days.
Re: My Visit to SCO
On March 10th, 2006 Carl Petros (not verified) says:
I wonder, why still people are writing about this.
Re: My Visit to SCO
On March 10th, 2006 Jack Marder (not verified) says:
You mean this article - or SCO
Re: My Visit to SCO
On March 10th, 2006 Carl Petros (not verified) says:
I mean SCO. Aren't they broke, right now ???
I have to agree ...
On February 7th, 2006 Giochi (not verified) says:
It is a little bit much in these days 8-))))) .... let's hope that they run out of cash very quickly.
Re: My Visit to SCO
On January 29th, 2006 John Raller (not verified) says:
Does somebody have a patent on life 8-)))))
re:Patents
On January 29th, 2006 Peter Pan (not verified) says:
No, but for sure they will have in the next furure 8-))))
re:Patents
On January 29th, 2006 JJ Miller (not verified) says:
Yes, they sue you for all shit, right now.
What about the rest of the world??? I wonder
On August 20th, 2003 Anonymous says:
As I was reading it occurred to me that all this legal wrangling is going on in US court. I wonder if this is an opening for other countries to continue promote Open Source software more effectively than the US. It would seem to me that if US companies had to pay 300, 1000, whatever for each software product, and the rest of the world could get it for free to use in there locale, the US would be at a severe cost disadvantage.
Use the world's best and cheapest software, host it in Russia or Belize (wherever), might really tip the scales. Already I can see that shrink wrapped software sales is under pressure, grid computing and the internet could make remotely hosted software systems very attractive.
I don't know all the legal aspects, but I do knows that developing countries will be looking for competitive advantages. As IP becomes the strong market commodity in the future, it seems to me that countries that have the best terms will succeed in capturing market share. Isn't that how the US became an industrial powerhouse? Wasn't US law more entrepreneurial than England, where the industrial revolution began?
Re: My Visit to SCO
On August 16th, 2003 Anonymous says:
This is a great piece of article. In retrospect everything you've predicted have all come true. Wow! You have a new fan in me!
Re: My Visit to SCO
On August 16th, 2003 Anonymous says:
Doesn't the fact that there are jokes within the source code's comments suggest they were written by hippies and bums (Open Source programmers) rather than corporate developers (SCO or AT&T)? I just can't help thinking that these codes were indeed copied from Linux to SCO's stuff, not the other way around as SCO suggests.
Re: My Visit to SCO
On August 11th, 2003 Anonymous says:
I just heard SCO is started to send bills to those it sent the original letter. I recommend that anyone that receives a letter asking for payment to file a complaint with the ftc at http://www.ftc.gov.
Re: writing errors = software errors
On July 22nd, 2003 Anonymous says:
As I read the comments of programmers, I noticed many speeling and grammatical errors. If they code like they write, no wonder there is so much buggy software!
Re: writing errors = software errors
On April 10th, 2004 Anonymous says:
Next time use spell check ... dork!
Re: writing errors = software errors
On July 23rd, 2003 Anonymous says:
speeling? What's that.
Besides, for programming, we have the compiler to point out spelling mistakes.
Re: My Visit to SCO
On July 22nd, 2003 Anonymous says:
The CEO of SCO is an SOB. The only winner in this copyright/patent dispute is, as usual, Microsoft. Bill Gates and his cohorts are jumping up and down with glee at seeing the rest of the software industry attacking and destroying each other. Consequently, I will be buying Microsoft stock.
Re: My Visit to SCO
On July 16th, 2003 Anonymous says:
Great article; great work. Thank you for your sacrificial efforts in regard to your visit to SCO. Your coverage and comments were tactful, well balanced, insightful, and helpful.
Randy
Re: My Visit to SCO
On July 8th, 2003 Anonymous says:
[SCO] said that until the parties go to court, it doesn't want the Linux community to remove the code in question.
Now that is an interesting. If SCO is making charges that there is Unix code in Linux, why does it not want to help the Linux community identify these violations and have said code removed/replaced in an expedient manner?
This, in and of itself, seems to be a suspect position to take.
General copyright question
On July 2nd, 2003 Anonymous says:
If I have a copyrighted file and cuts out a piece of it (without copyright header) and send it to some newsgroup to ask a question about some problem I have with this piece of code, is then that code copyrighted or not?
If it is not, it would mean that every member of that newsgroup could do a cut and paste and have the identical code in their project even though that code was originally copyrighted.
I have no idea if this applies to the current issue but I am curious how the copyright laws works.
Re: My Visit to SCO
On June 30th, 2003 Anonymous says:
Very Intresting article, this does amount to a lot of debate, what happen when the boot is on the other foot for SCO, whate happens if the code originally came from the linux community. Makes you think doe it not. Sco is going bad, uses this example code which it obtained from the linux community, has a large bank balance and thinks lets give IBM a shake up and score some more money..
Intresting thought Eh, bye all from DownUnder
Re: My Visit to SCO
On June 27th, 2003 Anonymous says:
In general, the issue is where the boundary lies between derivative works and independent works. All programs run on Unix use a Unix API; do they therefore become derivative works? Presumably not. However, when writing a program that runs on Unix, I might look at Unix source code if I have access to it; does that make my program a derivative work? It seems, from SCO's comments, that it might claim this is so.
It sounds like the logical conclusion to this argument is that any attempt at compatibility with other software implies derivation. It'll be a scary day for the software industry if that holds up in court...the only way your app can be unencumbered is if you write your own custom OS to run it under, and use your own explicitly incompatible interfaces and file formats. OTOH, maybe I should see if I can find out who first implemented ASCII and buy the implied copyrights to it on the cheap before they catch on...
William Vollrath
On August 12th, 2003 Anonymous says:
You'll have to buy the rights from the numbers "1" and "0", and they can never agree :)
Re: My Visit to SCO
On June 25th, 2003 Anonymous says:
Great article, pretty clarifying in the middle of all those boring 20 A4 texta, if you ask me :)
Your Visit to SCO, the GPL, and FLOSS law/public policy
On June 26th, 2003 Anonymous says:
I have posted a longer reply to the Digital Copyright Canada forum which I hope people will consider reading.
Since SCO has nothing to loose given they were/are likely to go bankrupt anyway, I wonder if they are simply setting themselves up as a sinking-ship legal test case for a number of uncertainties in software law. They are touching on the limits of copyright licenses, what is a derivative work, software patents, trade secrets, damages for making knowledge public, enforceability of clauses of the GPL (given Caldera distributed Linux, who gets damages for their illegal distribution given they now claim proprietary rights against GPL'd code), and so-on.
While SCO/Caldera can no longer be taken seriously as a software company, I do believe we should all be taking the legal and public policy implications of this case very seriously. This case may cause many unanswered questions to get answered, and if we are not proactive they may not be answered in what we would consider a reasonable/logical way.
What I am asking is that people become more active in the legal and policy questions that these cases are bringing forward. Don't underestimate the lack of knowledge that courts and policy makers have about Free Software and all the positive implications of what we are doing! We have something very important we are protecting, and should take every avenue we have available to us to protect it.
Re: My Visit to SCO
On June 26th, 2003 Anonymous says:
Reminds me of a lawsuit many many decades ago in Europe, where a very popular artist painted on the table cloth. The restaurant owner claimed the piece because it was painted on his property, yet the court decided that the artwork as such was property of the artist and that the artist had to pay the restaurant owner only for the table cloth it was painted on (probably cents in comparison to the 1000 of $s which the painting was worth).
Re: My Visit to SCO
On June 26th, 2003 Anonymous says:
It would be very interesting if Linux source-code from Caldera bought by SCO was put into SCO's products. If this would be the case the GPL demands to reveal all the SCO sources which include little pieces or bigger parts of these linux-sources.
Maybe a sue from the open source community would be more justifiable then the other way round.
Re: My Visit to SCO
On June 25th, 2003 Anonymous says:
SCO's NDA sounds like a Labraya [sic] tarpit trap for linux users and developers. As such perhaps we should start viewing it through an anti-trust lens.
IP rights vs. Licencing rights
On June 24th, 2003 MichaelIckx (not verified) says:
First, many thanks to IanLanceTaylor for taking the trouble to listen at SCO's nonsense and writting this clearifying article to the benefit of the Linux comunity.
Now, let's not miss the central issue as it affects Linux users and vendors anyway. Any US court will be compeled to distinguish between property rights and licencing rights. Even if any component of AIX is indeed derivative work (BTW, a big IF), it would only affect the licencing contract between IBM and ATT (now SCO), and not the fact that the new AIX components indeed belong to IBM. All SCO can try is to get a penalty from IBM for violation of the licencing agreement. As all these new AIX components, whether derivative or not, still belongs entirely to IBM, the Linux-GPL licencing by IBM cannot be revoked, nullified or terminated by SCO. Linux users and vendors may well alege that the code they are using belongs to IBM and is released under GPL by it's owner (IBM). Therefore they are not in violation of any SCO IP, and the licencing issues relating to the original System V is to be dealt out with IBM, not with the Linux users or vendors.
Even as SCO tries to teminate IBM-ATT's original licencing contract, the code written by IBM for AIX still belongs to IBM, not to SCO. Therefore SCO still has no right to ask for fees to Linux vendors or users.
On the other hand, as SCO might expect a penalty from IBM, they might as well expect further IP violation thunderstorms from IBM. It is my speculation that it'll all turn out to be a "get rich quick and leave for good" move by SCO's shareholding management.
IP rights vs. Licencing rights
On June 24th, 2003 Anonymous says:
First, many thanks to IanLanceTaylor for taking the trouble to listen at SCO's nonsense in the benefit of the Linux comunity.
Now, let's not miss the central issue as it affects Linux users and vendors anyway. Any US court will be compeled to distinguish between property rights and licencing rights. Even if any component of AIX is indeed derivative work (BTW, a big IF), it would only affect the licencing contract between IBM and ATT (now SCO), and not the fact that the new AIX components indeed belong to IBM. All SCO can try is to get a penalty from IBM for violation of the licencing agreement. As all these new AIX components, whether derivative or not, still belongs entirely to IBM, the Linux-GPL licencing by IBM cannot be revoked, nullified or terminated by SCO. Linux users and vendors may well alege that the code they are using belongs to IBM and is released under GPL by it's owner (IBM). Therefore they are not in violation of any SCO IP, and the licencing issues relating to the original System V is to be dealt out with IBM, not with the Linux users or vendors.
Even as SCO tries to teminate IBM-ATT's original licencing contract, the code written by IBM for AIX still belongs to IBM, not to SCO. Therefore SCO still has no right to ask for fees to Linux vendors or users.
On the other hand, as SCO might expect a penalty from IBM, they might as well expect further IP violation thunderstorms from IBM. It is my speculation that it'll all turn out to be a "get rich quick and leave for good" move by SCO's shareholding management.
Let me explain "derivative work"
On June 24th, 2003 Anonymous says:
A derivative work is any material created by modifying or incorporating any previous work. FreeBSD 5.1 is a derivative work of FreeBSD 5.0 and FreeBSD 2.0 is a derivative work of one of the BSD releases.
Likewise, the JFS code makes Linux a derivative work of OS/2, for example.
This is all basic copyright law that has been well-understood since the early days of U.S. intellectual properties law. It's not in dispute.
SCO is making a number of claims. Apparently, according to SCO, IBM was contractually required to keep technologies developed for its UNIX-derived works secret. Thus JFS is tainted by the contract, not copyright law. Even rewriting the code from scratch for OS/2 wouldn't solve that problem, but it's not the code that IBM's UNIX license places the restrictions on.
The way I see it, our best-case scenario is that SCO'll turn up a few insignificant cases of copyright infringement in the form of small blocks of code that'll need to be rewritten for Linux. People make slip-ups like that, and Linux developers probably haven't maintained 100% perfection throughout the history of the OS.
The worst case scenario is that SCO will win on the contractual issues and there'll be an injunction against the use of certain IBM inventions outside of UNIX.
Losing directly on the trade secret issues (without losing on the contractual issue) wouldn't be as bad, since IBM would end up paying a financial judgement to SCO, and SCO would lose its trade secrets. Once a trade secret is disclosed, it ceases to exist even if you successfully sue the people that released the information.
Re: Let me explain
On June 26th, 2003 Anonymous says:
Sorry but you are wrong. Your BSD example is correct with regards to derivative works. However, with regards to JFS, since it's not BASED on an existing SVR5 file system, it is an INNOVATION, and not a DERIVATION. The derivation concept does not apply. If JFS 1.0 was present in SVR5 as LogFS, IBM took that code, rewrote and improved it, then JFS would be a derivative of SVR5. Have you looked back at what was in the original AT&T SVR5? There's nothing like JFS, RCU, or NUMA even remotely attempted in there.
Re: My Visit to SCO
On June 24th, 2003 Anonymous says:
There needs to be a bit morelight shed on SCO's financial position. I have heard comments that SCO is financially in the dumpers and heading for bankruptcy when the suit idea surfaced. MS got the idea that SCO was a good proxy warrior against Linux, and popped for the money to let SCO continue. Now, unless SCO prevails and wins a bundle in damages from someone who will actually pay up, it's on to bankruptcy again.
A desperate move by desperate people, supported by a sideline sitter with a most vested interest.
Let IBM just wait it out ...
On June 23rd, 2003 Anonymous says:
A lawyer told me once "delay" was a powerful legal weapon. Here's a much more satisfying projection: why not wait SCO out. Theoretically the small corp has the same rights as IBM, but just like an OJ trial - money talks. And buys you time. IBM (and RedHat) could probably delay the proceedings until SCO's cash runs out for much less money than it would cost to buy the company.
Re: Let IBM just wait it out ...
On June 24th, 2003 Anonymous says:
>IBM (and RedHat) could probably delay the proceedings
>until SCO's cash runs out for much less money than
> it would cost to buy the company.
That's right, but _some_ companies can invest some amounts of money in SCO, say, as licensing fees. As they did, in fact. As SCO does not develop anything now, it can fire all its personel, except CEO, PR and lawyers and thus minimize its outcomes. It could take a lOOOOng to wait for SCO's bankruptcy.
Re: My Visit to SCO
On June 23rd, 2003 Anonymous says:
Thanks for your efforts and dilligence in reporting.
It would seem to me that a reasonable interpretation of SCO's derivative works policy indicates that all of the code ever written is derivative of that which came before it. Eventually, you would get to the point of INTEL, MOTOROLA, TI, NATIONAL SEMICONDUCTOR, and perhaps a couple of others who own the microcode for their processors and PLAs, having a claim to everything written. It is pretty ludicrous but then, so is SCOs assertion. (If we are accurate in assuming that they are claiming that linking to a API constitutes a derivative work)
If I owned any SCO stock, now would be a great time to divest. The counter suits of which you spoke would seem to be a very likely outcome. I suspect that in five years, there will be only a memory of an entity known as SCO.
s.m. dupree
knoxville, tn
William Vollrath
On August 12th, 2003 Anonymous says:
Take it further. All information processing is thus likely owned by the heirs of Boole
William Vollrath
On August 12th, 2003 Anonymous says:
And any useful thing ever created using a computer is thus jointly owned by the numbers "1" and "0"
Re: My Visit to SCO
On June 23rd, 2003 Anonymous says:
The first thing that I feel IBM needs to do is ask The SCO Group, "Prove you own the Unix copyrights".
Novell states they did not transfer Unix copyrights over when the code was bought. Here is an excerpt of Novell's statement:
Importantly, and contrary to SCO's assertions, SCO is not the owner of the UNIX copyrights. Not only would a quick check of U.S. Copyright Office records reveal this fact, but a review of the asset transfer agreement between Novell and SCO confirms it. To Novell's knowledge, the 1995 agreement governing SCO's purchase of UNIX from Novell does not convey to SCO the associated copyrights. We believe it unlikely that SCO can demonstrate that it has any ownership interest whatsoever in those copyrights. Apparently, you share this view, since over the last few months you have repeatedly asked Novell to transfer the copyrights to SCO, requests that Novell has rejected. Finally, we find it telling that SCO failed to assert a claim for copyright or patent infringement against IBM.
The detailed article can be found here, on Novell's site:
http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/2003/05/pr03033.html
Re: My Visit to SCO
On June 23rd, 2003 Anonymous says:
The first thing that I feel IBM needs to do is ask The SCO Group, "Prove you own the Unix copyrights".
Novell states they did not transfer Unix copyrights over when the code was bought. Here is an excerpt of Novell's statement:
Importantly, and contrary to SCO's assertions, SCO is not the owner of the UNIX copyrights. Not only would a quick check of U.S. Copyright Office records reveal this fact, but a review of the asset transfer agreement between Novell and SCO confirms it. To Novell's knowledge, the 1995 agreement governing SCO's purchase of UNIX from Novell does not convey to SCO the associated copyrights. We believe it unlikely that SCO can demonstrate that it has any ownership interest whatsoever in those copyrights. Apparently, you share this view, since over the last few months you have repeatedly asked Novell to transfer the copyrights to SCO, requests that Novell has rejected. Finally, we find it telling that SCO failed to assert a claim for copyright or patent infringement against IBM.
The detailed article can be found here, on Novell's site:
http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/2003/05/pr03033.html
Re: My Visit to SCO
On June 23rd, 2003 Anonymous says:
Is it possible that they are trying to force a legal
judgement on "derivative works" in order to set
a precedent for a future assault on the GPL? Ok,
putting on my little foil conspiracy beanie... Could
they (with MSoft backing) be setting themselves
up to fail in the derivative works argument?
Cary
Re: My Visit to SCO
On June 22nd, 2003 Anonymous says:
Thanks so much for the essay. I must say, though I would freely contribute to the Free Software Foundation and the Electronic Frontier Foundation, Amnesty International is right out.
>
Re: My Visit to SCO
On June 24th, 2003 Anonymous says:
Their concept of owning of a derivitive work has nothing to do either with the GPL and/or copyleft, or even with copyright law. What they are saying, taken to it's logical conclusion, is that a wholy original and seperately produced work (such as SGI Numa or IBM JFS), once it is compiled and used with Unix, even if originally developed elsewhere or for other operating systems first, suddenly, the original authors or companies loose all rights to that said work. Such a notion is clearly perposterous.
Re: My Visit to SCO
On June 25th, 2003 Anonymous says:
WIth the licensing of many analysis tools on the proprietary market (IBM, MATCAD, MS, etc.) costing millions, corporatations are looking more and more frequently to open source software (GPL) to create the tools they need for development. Look at Boeing, Raytheon, and Lockheed....how many of their in-development research projects are being worked with Linux and GPL tools? Gobbs more than the rest of you will ever know as most of the projects have military applications and are thusly classified. Screw SCO! The have a substandard product, and are just blatantly attempting to mug the corporate Linux users. This is exactly the same crap that mobsters did to America in the '30s and it took the judicial branch of the government 70+ years to un-***** the situation.
derived from Linux ???
On June 22nd, 2003 Anonymous says:
Great your statement ...
" In general, the issue is where the boundary lies between derivative works and independent works. All programs run on Unix use a Unix API; do they therefore become derivative works? Presumably not. However, when writing a program that runs on Unix, I might look at Unix source code if I have access to it; does that make my program a derivative work? It seems, from SCO's comments, that it might claim this is so."
So in other words their trying to make Linux programs running under UNIX, they consider UNIX to be a derivative work of Linux ? How else could they have accomplished this task w/o looking at the kernel sources ?
Linux vendor consortium should buy SCO
On June 22nd, 2003 Anonymous says:
I'd suggest that, rather than having a single vendor or Linux user charity buy up SCO, the best way forwards would be for all the major Linux vendors/supporters to club together to buy up SCO, with contributions weighted by sales. A charity won't get enough subscribers, and any single vendor would be put at a severe disadvantage.
Of course this does have the downside of handing a large amount of money to some parasites, but hey, thats the commercial world. Always has been (look up the James Watt crankshaft patent in Google) and probably always will be, although the law can be changed to reduce it.
Paul.
Re: My Visit to SCO
On June 21st, 2003 Anonymous says:
sco doesn't have *any* jurical role in this masquerade
the linux kernel is the very same kernel they shipped with caldera, which means their acceptance for whatever was in that kernel, to be made public, implicitly voiding whatever they claim today, retroactive
there is no court in the country to encourage completely un-fonded claims and to spend more than a half an hour with this abomination...
those guys should start thinking on their resumees... :-)
ps
thx 4 the details...
this is not true
On June 22nd, 2003 Anonymous says:
AFAIK
they have one of the best lawyers. Please consider that they recon
you can not contribute your code to GPL if you are not aware of it. This is part of the GPL.
So all they have to say/prove is that they did not know what they were selling. We have to find out how we can prove the opposite.
Please before making every one in the Linux comunity think it is as easy as this read the GPL or say that this is your oppinion.
Do not under estimate your enemy, they are not stupid, they are graving all our money and to rule the UNIX world.
Re: this is not true
On June 23rd, 2003 Anonymous says:
you can not contribute your code to GPL if you are not aware of it. This is part of the GPL.
Where exactly does it say this, and what is the wording? I've read through the whole GPL, (I skimmed some parts, I admit...but only sections which I didn't think would have this in it.) and I can't seem to find it.
So all they have to say/prove is that they did not know what they were selling.
So basically, they have to say they were stupid, and deserve compensation for that fact. I don't know of many CEO's that would admit they were stupid.
Re: this is not true
On June 27th, 2003 Anonymous says:
>> I don't know of many CEO's that would admit they were stupid.
I bet you could find a few who would admit to being stupid for a $3B windfall to a $130M company. Even I would, if it weren't for the ethics. I think it's clear that ethical considerations aren't real high on SCO's list.