OOo Off the Wall: It's Numbering, but Not as We Know It

Numbered and bulleted lists that don't disappear, switch, realign themselves or otherwise make your life miserable.
Positioning Options for Lists

The Position tab contains options for how list items are positioned on a line of text. The tab's options especially are important for single-style outline numbering. However, all list types can use the options on the Position tab:

  • Indent: sets the space between the numbering field and the start of the line. If the style uses outline numbering, select the Relative box to set the indent in relation to the start of the line in the previous level of the hierarchy. Based on HTML, many users automatically indent a list from the text body paragraphs. However, habit seems to be the only reason for this practice. There often is no reason why a top-level list should have an indent. Sub-lists can be indented to show their relation to the top level list, but even that is not always necessary. Often, the change in numbering format is enough.

  • Spacing to text: the distance between the numbering field and the start of the text. If this option is not used, then the starting position of the text shifts when the number of digits in a numbered list changes (for example, when changing to two digit numbers at 10). This setting takes some fiddling to get right. Too little spacing looks cramped but too much disassociates the bullets or numbers from the list items.

  • Position -> Minimum space numbering -> text: set a minimum distance between the number and the start of the text in the first line. The other lines in the paragraph either are aligned with the text or use the setting in the Spacing to text field. If the option is used, the starting position of the text shifts when the number of digits changes in the list.

  • Numbering alignment: how the number or bullet is positioned in its field. Although this option has some use in complex layouts, especially when dealing with large numbers, for the most part you can leave it at the default setting of Left and ignore it.

Making a Custom Numbered List

If you want to create a numbered list quickly, you can select the style from the Numbering style tab. The pre-defined choices for numbered lists often are all that you need. For anything out of the ordinary, go directly to the Options tab and use these settings:

  • Numbering: set the numbering format. Arabic numbers, upper and lower case Roman numerals and letters are all available.

  • Before / After: sets the characters before and after the number. For example, before the number you might want Chapter, while after the number a simple period or parentheses might do.

  • Character style: the character style used for formatting numbers. In a simple document, you can use the default Numbering symbol. However, if you are using differently formatted numbered lists, you should create a different character style for each format.

  • Start at: The number at which numbered lists should start. This is also the number that a paragraph reverts to when you select the Restart Numbering button on the List Mode tool bar.

Making a Bullet Style

You can select a pre-defined bullet from the Bullet tab. If you want something more elaborate, you can select a bullet from the Graphics tab. These bullets are the same ones found in Tools -> Gallery -> Bullets. The bullets on the Graphics tab are most suitable for on-line work, but I suggest you avoid using them. As a friend remarked, the available choices are "so mid-Nineties" that they seem quaint. Fortunately, more interesting tools are available on the Options tab.

If you select Bullets in the Numbering field, you then can select the character style to use and the particular character for the bullet. In an ordinary font, you can select various characters for a bullet. However, if you set the character style to a dingbat set--a font in which characters are replaced by pictures--you can be even more creative. Just remember that if you open the document on another machine, it needs to have the same dingbat font to depict the bullets properly.

Incidentally, if your document might be opened in MS Word, change the character style to one that MS Word can access. The default Bullets character style uses StarSymbol to create bullets and generally is not available to MS Word. Alternatively, you might want to use the Adobe Type Manager in Windows to load StarSymbol.

You also can create a bullet style by selecting Graphics or Linked Graphics in the Numbering field. Selecting Graphics embeds the graphic you select in the document, while Linked Graphics references the separate graphics file. Which one to select depends on circumstances, but basically, you should select Graphics to keep the document self-contained or Linked Graphics to control file size.

In both cases, the choice of graphic for a bullet deserves some thought. In most cases, the graphic is going to display at a relatively small size, so too complex a picture is out. Similarly, if the document is printed in black and white, the contrasts of a colored graphic probably are going to be lost. Usually, you'll want a simple graphic with strong contrasts in colors.

In both cases, too, the options are the same. Once you select the graphic, you can adjust its display width and height, selecting the Keep Ratio box to keep the proportions the same. You also can use Alignment to change how the graphic sits on the baseline. Be prepared for some experimentation before you find the best way to display the graphic as a bullet. Too large a graphic can distort the lines in the list item, while too small a graphic may be invisible and therefore not worth using at all.


-- Bruce Byfield (nanday)


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Turing off numbering and lists

Anonymous's picture

I can't find an option anywhere to turn these things off. They are driving me nuts.

Number is the worst Nightmare

Desperate's picture

Installed OO 3.0 hoping the style / numbering is finally ok.
So... modify Numbering 1 to get what I want (1 1.1 1.1.1 with no extra dot).
Then modify my custom paragraph style "Mystyle" to use "Numbering 1" for numbering.

Done. Not really intuitive but - after all - rather easy.

However: it doesn't work. After trying many things for 2 (two) hours, I'm desperately looking for a solution on the web forums.

My idea about the problem: I initially used a custom numbering in "mystyle" (that worked very well), then I wanted a level 3 and thought that it would be better to use the "Numbering 1" pre-defined numbering style. Did that but OO started to be confused seemingly.

I know OO is free etc... but as a professional 2 hours of time is a lot, just to get some numbering working. OO is *really* not intuitive, and is bugged. The mix of that is: when there is a problem one never know if it is a bug, or a mis-use of the non-intuitive interface. In my case it seems to be both.

Numbering has been a nightmare since day 1. OO guys, please, just erase numbering.c (or whatever it is called) and create a new one from scratch.

Its a complete mess

Anonymous's picture

the OO numbering is such a mess Im close to installing Word again. This is a hopeless case!

So many years of computing, yet no decent writer app

Anonymous's picture

Numbering is a nightmare. In 1991 I wrote my master using FrameMaker and numbering worked like a charm. In 2006 I am stuck with openoffice where numbering is impossibly hard. I'm going to have to go back to my favorite 1988 tool: latex. This is so frustrating. If I knew a $1000 would fix the problem forever, I would pay it right away: who do I write the cheque to?

OOo Off the Wall: Not even on the Same Page

Simon Mackenzie's picture

I like OOo! But I still think back to the days of Venture Publisher. In comparison control of paragraph style numbering and insertion of numbering and style text into headers in OOo is disappointing, frustrating and seems so unbelievably inconsistent. One has to check various unrelated dialogue boxes to effect some sort of result; but predicting the result seems very unpredictable. (I feel the results are more akin to the results of the “Improbability Drive

numbering lists

Anonymous's picture

I appreciate the effort of writing this paper. However, also given our enthusiasm for writer, I must say that numbering the title of chapter and paragraphs is a nightmare. I could not solve my problems even after reading the article. The only program I used that offered the result strightforward was lotus manuscript! This is 20 years ago. Even a printed book about OOO could not explain the mechanism to me. I really hope somebody is going to write a good tutorial on this.

Open Office numbering is so b

Anonymous's picture

Open Office numbering is so bloody ridiculous. The behaviour is so unpredictable. Why couldn't they have just followed MS Office outline numbering exactly. Most users are so used to that. Now they've mixed it up with the styles. Then there's a Tools->outline numbering, both of which can't do even the simplest outline numbering MS Word allowed me to do. Its stupid and ridiculous.

Re: OOo Off the Wall: It's Numbering, but Not as We Know It

Anonymous's picture

OOo 1.1.2 is just rubbish when it comes to lists and outlines. It is worse than M$!!! It has been an extremely frustrating experience. After two months of trying to make decent looking outlines and lists I gave it up. Type everything manually!

So that's why it mixes up bullets and lists

Anonymous's picture

This article goes some way towards explaining why my bullets spontaneously turn into numbers and why my numbering sometimes spontaneously starts at "7" instead of "1". Ah well - it will be fixed one day. (I've got a 200+ page master document with 31 sub-documents.)

Re: So that's why it mixes up bullets and lists

Anonymous's picture

I don't know how you implemented bullets and numbers, but you could also be having problems if you haven't been using styles, or if your sub-documents have a different template than your master document.

Re: OOo Off the Wall: It's Numbering, but Not as We Know It

Anonymous's picture

A really great article.. Thanks

Re: OOo Off the Wall: It's Numbering, but Not as We Know It

Anonymous's picture

My biggest issue with Writer's numbering/lists isn't really with the lists at all, but rather with the document wanting to change the font because of how i selected or deleted text. It usually manifests itself as a number in a different font than what I had been typing in. I guess the moral is to do the formatting after you write the document.

Re: OOo Off the Wall: It's Numbering, but Not as We Know It

Bruce_Byfield's picture

Actually, you have a couple of choices:

- turn off all the automatic features
- use paragraph and character styles throughout

Either way, you should get the results you want.

Re: OOo Off the Wall: It's Numbering, but Not as We Know It

Anonymous's picture

My problem with OOo numbering is that I haven't been able to consistently turn it off! I don't want/need any "help" with numbering lists. Unfortunately I've had problems turning it off (and keeping it turned off).

I would like a top level menu option telling OOo to leave the text alone.

Re: OOo Off the Wall: It's Numbering, but Not as We Know It

Anonymous's picture

You've hit the mark, man.

Re: OOo Off the Wall: It's Numbering, but Not as We Know It

Bruce_Byfield's picture

Try turning off all the features in Tools > AutoCorrect/Autoformat.

Re: OOo Off the Wall: It's Numbering, but Not as We Know It

Anonymous's picture

I have to agree. I want to wean myself off of Word. However, three things keep stopping me -- bulleted/numbered lists, occasional Word incompatibilities, and embedded graphics.

While this aricle may clear up most of the first and part of the second reason, I, too, wish that Open/StarOffice would just leave it alone, by default.

Once this happens, I will help wean others off of Word, too.

Re: OOo Off the Wall: It's Numbering, but Not as We Know It

Anonymous's picture

I guess that the popularity of WYSIWYG word processors is due, in no small measure, to the fact that anyone can produce a simple document with little or no training. It is only when trying to produce complicated documents that the limitations associated with such programs, and the contortions that their designers have to go into in their attempts to paliate them, become obvious.

Word and its siblings are OK for uncomplicated, amateurish documents. For something that allows one to obtain professional-looking, beautiful results, programs like TeX and its progeny (LaTeX, TeXmacs, LyX) are light years ahead.

Re: OOo Off the Wall: It's Numbering, but Not as We Know It

Anonymous's picture

I agree with your comment, TeX is the utmost in terms of possibilities and professional quality. However I think it is fortunate that this kind of WYSIWYG word processors exists. Think of all the people whose specialty or expertise is not computer science but who need to produce reports, articles or whatever without worrying about the ins and outs and who don't have time to waste learning TeX or LateX programming. They just look for something "intuitive", easy to use and better than the prehistoric ribbon typewriter. OpenOffice is splendid for that and word in a certain extent.

Re: OOo Off the Wall: It's Numbering, but Not as We Know It

Bruce_Byfield's picture

TeX is great, but it's an overstatement to claim that it is vastly ahead of other alternatives. Several publishers use for their work, so it can't be that far behind TeX.

I wonder how many people could look at a document done in TeX and another done in and tell what software was used to produce them?

OpenOffice is younger thatn Tex

Anonymous's picture

Tex can do things OpenOffice cannot but Openoffice users a extendable XML the features could be added. If you used a feature that Tex only had I could pick it but else I could not.

Now merging the features of Latex into Openoffice would be a power boast.

Note it is also what you see is what you get. This has many extras. The source of Hotdog Html editor was a good merge of direct editing with What you see is what you get. This is Latex and most Tex based editors faults I have not found one that does a good job of this.

Now it is just a merge with openoffice to get good display with out lossing the extra functions(add a tex exporter/importor and extend the XML where needed).

Re: OOo Off the Wall: It's Numbering, but Not as We Know It

Bruce_Byfield's picture

Yes, there are a lot of badly designed documents out there.

However, the problem is not really the tools. The problem is that most users have no idea of the principles of good design. GUI programs give users more ways to go wrong, but put design-illliterates in front of Tex, and their results would be no better.

The truth is, both GUI programs and Tex require both learning and design knowledge to use well. Given both, the only reason to prefer one over the other is your own work habits.

Re: OOo Off the Wall: It's Numbering, but Not as We Know It

Anonymous's picture

While I don't use TeX-based tools, the best WYSWYG document processor IMHO has always been Framemaker. It handled complex and large documents without any problems, especially section numbered headings. MS Word makes me tear my hair out everytime it autocorrects numbered headings and insists on overriding my paragraph numbering styles.

Unfortunately, when Adobe bought out Framemaker, the stability of the first-release Adobe-branded FrameMaker was poor, and it's been many years since I've touched it so I don't know if it's still around even.

Now if OOo manages to implement FrameMaker style numbering, I'll be a happy camper!

Outline numbering in Writer is just plain broken

M1911's picture

All I want to do is having my headings outline numbered. That is, my doc should look like this:

1. Introduction
blah blah blah

2. First Real stuff
blah bla blah
2.1 Subsection
bla blah blah
2.2 Another Subsection

Setting this up is incredibly easy in Word. You simply edit the styles and you are done. It is incredibly easy in HTML. Here I am floundering around in Writer and I just can't figure it out. Why did you have to take a simple idea and make it so bloddy complicated?

I somehow figured out how to

Anonymous's picture

I somehow figured out how to do the numbering you're looking for with heading1, heading2, and numbering. But now I'm in this mess where I can't insert a new heading 2 that uses the same numbering as the heading2 paragraphs around it. If I have 2; 2.1; 2.2; 3; ... and I want to insert a heading 2 before 2.1 I end up with 2; 1.1; 2.1; 2.2; 3; ... I ended up copying and pasting the 2.1 paragraph and erasing all but the number. There are multiple sets of numbered paragraphs and I have no idea how to get Writer to use just one.

I'm sure this is very powerful, but without better documentation it's frustrating.

I have been battling with

Anonymous's picture

I have been battling with the same problem for over 18months...

I found something out try this:
insert new "default" paragraph eg

blah blah
my new default parargraph, with numbering turned OFF

Now select part of the new line, you will find an NEW option saying
Continue previous numbering, select this. You will see something like

blah blah
3 my new......

then using the "bullets and numbering" toolbar (view-->Toolbars) "push" in the numbering by clicking on -> arrow you should get

blah blah
2.3.1 my new.....

It sometimes works..... if your lucky but once numbering is there you won't get the contiue option!!! aRRRRRRRRR!!

What I'd like to see is an option like "restart numbering" BUT the
opersite "conitune numbering" which links to previous lat numbering reference which if its too deep you "just" <- back with the option in
the numbering tool bar button.

THIS whole numbering thing is really coursing me to rething OO, which
on the whole I like, but this numbering issues has caurse me to re-write more than one doc to just to fix numbering!! not fun on a 100page doc. Please Please someone that can please look into it

Two separate issues

Anonymous's picture

There seems to be two separate issues here:

1) Bullets and numbering
2) Paragraph and heading numbering

What I have found is that if the item just before an "Outline Numbering" heading is a bulleted or numbered list, that heading will not become numbered when you do a Tools -> Outline Numbering.. action on your document.

To get the number to appear I found I had to:

Push enter at the end of the list, then backspace to remove that new list member, then enter twice to create two blank paragraphs straight after the list, then the delete key to pull the following heading onto the second blank paragraph (its heading style gets changed to that paragraph style), then re-style the heading to the appropriate level.

Once I did that the heading appeared with a magically assigned number, and OO reordered the rest of the numbering systems below that heading to match.

I suspect that its a bug.

I got the same problem with 2.0.3

Anonymous's picture

I found exactly the same problem, even in 2.0.3.

The outline numbering for headings worked just fine when I first edited my document. When I came to edit it again today, any new headings started again at 1. So I have section 2.1, 2.2, 2.3 and then 1.1.

Thanks for the tip about copy+paste. It works for me.

Copy+Paste is not a real solution

Rasmus EST's picture

I used to have exactly the same problem (seemingly random numbering). At first, I tried to fix the heading numbering by setting the "Start at" section in numbering properties, which unfortunately also changed some other headings. Then I found this article here that told me there are numbering styles.

So I found a real solution. This works under OO.o 2.4.0, probably others too. If your numbering is really gone wrong, do the following:

1. Format -> Styles and Formatting
2. In the Styles and Formatting window that just popped up, select the "List styles" icon. It is the fifth icon from the left
3. Right mouseclick in the listbox, select "New..."
4. Give it a good name, e.g "Chapter numbering".
5. Select the "Options tab".
6. In the "Level" list, select "1 - 10".
7. Select numbering styles, before and after characters, number of sublevels (it must be at least the number of your lowest heading, mine was 3 because I only used Heading 1, Heading 2 and Heading 3). Set "Start at" to 1.
8. CLick OK. New style created.
9. Make sure your headings have the Heading N styles, where N is the level of the heading.
20.Select the first heading you want to number. Then double-click on the name of the newly created list style. Heading will now have the number 1 in front of it.
21. Repeat step 20 for every heading. They will all "magically" get the numbers you always wanted them to have.
22. Each time you add a new numbered chapter or section you have to apply the list style to it.

You are welcome :)

Cranky Numbering

Anonymous's picture

The key to getting numbering to work as expected is to define a new list style.

For example I have some headings in a document that I want outline numbered, I define a new list style 'foo' in the 'list styles' pane of the 'styles and formatting' window; I then assign the list syle 'foo' to the paragraph styles 'Heading 1' ... 'Heading 4'. That way if I change the style of some text to a 'Heading' style it will automatically continue numbering from the previous entry that has the same style.

If you have some headings that have got out-of-sync with the rest of the list just place the cursor on the same line and double click the heading style you created in the 'styles and formatting' window, they will automagically re-number themselves in line with the rest of the list in that style.

Voila. Sane numbering.

Not so wrong after all

Gianluca Amato's picture

The easy way is to assign paragraph styles Heading 1 and Heading 2 to your headings. Then, go to Tools -> Outline Numering and choose the kind of numbering you like for all your headings.

This article describe another approach to outlining documents (one-style outlining) but I feel it is more difficult.

By the way, Brunce, thanks a lot for your wonderful articles.

Re: OOo Off the Wall: It's Numbering, but Not as We Know It

Bruce_Byfield's picture

FrameMaker is still around, but the rumor is that its features are going to be absorbed into In-Design.

I'd like to see OOo borrow Frame's approach, and allow a style to be defined to restart a numbering list, too.

Otherwise, OOo is really much closer to FrameMaker in functionality and logic than it is to MS Word. I'm starting to assemble notes for an article on the subject, and I'm surprised to reach this conclusion.